For Jimmy: Lindsey's chart/sales info

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

There was an interview for SYW where LB flat out says The Dance was about the money and, I think, the exposure it would get him to a world who had pretty much forgotten him.

As for SYW and what was he supposed to do, well he could have released the GOS songs online for free or for $1.00 a song after The Dance. I mean if artistic integrity is all he cares about, then why care if it sells or why use FM once again to sell it

It's not about integrity. I don't know why you come up with The Dance for g*ds sake.

The dance has NOTHING to do with Lindsey Buckinghams search for artistic growth and search of meaning. OFCOURSE that was for the money and the attention. There's not one soul on earth that would argue that. Say You Will was NOT primary for the money in LB's book. He wanted an artisticly valid double album that contained both FM's radiopopsensibility as well as out of the box new approaches in poprock. How can a man think it's about bucks if you take the challenge to put Murrow, Rover, Come, Say Goodbye etc. on a record? You're also going for critical acclaim for daring that in such a moneymachine that the Mac was.

And he could have released GOS on an indielabel and I'm sure he has weighed that as an possibility. But the labels' double standard towards that batch before and after the AOL-fusion pissed him off bigtime. Then the Mac came by for the Dance. So the possibilities of getting these songs released changed .

Now, concerning marketingdecisions he made, you may be right that those are not the most strong or consequent choices of him. But that has NOTHING I say NOTHING to do with the fact that this man challenges himself over and over again to find NEW grounds and experiments on songwriting- and productionlevel, trying to reinvent himself as a musician, not as a product. He's bad at that. It's not a Madonna, for sure. Not even a Stevie Nicks in that case. But he's not selling out like his ex does.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

It's not about integrity. I don't know why you come up with The Dance for g*ds sake.

The dance has NOTHING to do with Lindsey Buckinghams search for artistic growth and search of meaning. OFCOURSE that was for the money and the attention. There's not one soul on earth that would argue that.

The attention it would garner him so that a solo release would have more legs to get out there. It's always better to follow up on a mega selling machine like the Dance than a commercial failure like OOTC. The Dance itself has nothing to do with it, no, but the reasons behind it were definitely well thought out.

Say You Will was NOT primary for the money in LB's book. He wanted an artisticly valid double album that contained both FM's radiopopsensibility as well as out of the box new approaches in poprock. How can a man think it's about bucks if you take the challenge to put Murrow, Rover, Come, Say Goodbye etc. on a record? You're also going for critical acclaim for daring that in such a moneymachine that the Mac was.

I agree 200%. Like I said, if they weren't going to release GoS, what else was there to do for him than take the songs into a FM project, the only thing they were obviously going to stand behind? There were too many loose variables with all the changes going on within WB, so he made sure that his stuff at least would get out. This was the best way to go. Besides, they didn't put a gun to his head, he made that decision himself. They're not the anti-christ, he obviously likes his bandmembers and was not against working with them again. He made the decision to start working on Stevie's demos himself. And really, he even turned one of her songs into an obscure one, so you can't convince me he did SYW for commercial reasons.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

Still, listening to his solo-albums speaks bigger volumes. He simply didn't go for selling. OOTC is maybe an exception, but for the rest one can only conclude: here's a man searching for meaning in his art not for the bucks in his art. Which he already proved that he could. When in this life is that going to sip through, Strand? As so often, I just can't follow some of his fans that seem to disregard what he is telling through his music AND in every fokking interview he gives.

I think what continues to confuse people is the fact that Lindsey has had opportunities to switch to smaller, indie labels... places where it would be more about the "art" than the "commerce"... but he continues to re-sign with Warner Bros., a label that has, at times, flat out refused to release his material.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I think what continues to confuse people is the fact that Lindsey has had opportunities to switch to smaller, indie labels... places where it would be more about the "art" than the "commerce"... but he continues to re-sign with Warner Bros., a label that has, at times, flat out refused to release his material.

That is because he is in many ways beholden to the money - who wouldn't be. To me, that has nothing to do with artistic integrity, though he did change "only kill" to "break their will" on Peacekeeper

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

It's not about integrity. I don't know why you come up with The Dance for g*ds sake . . . .

He could have finished and released GOS in lieu of doing The Dance. He did not do that. He opted for the commercial venture, which he was still opting for five years later when SYW came into the picutre. I do not blame him one bit - just calling a spade a spade

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

But he's not selling out like his ex does.

I dislike that phrase... "selling out."
By all rights, an artist has "sold out" the minute they signed a contract with a record label, to create a product that the record label can sell.

In my eyes, the only folks who haven't "sold out," in the truest definition of the term, are the ones who continue to create in utter obscurity without any compromises.

I feel that Stevie fully understands the fact that she is, alongside being a singer/songwriter, an employee of her record company, and knows that she needs to deliver on her contract. Her albums have their share of obscure, esoteric songs... the ones that satisfy her artistic side... as well as more "commercial," radio-friendly songs that satisfy the record company.
She also knows that she has to get up on stage and sing certain songs in order to help sell that album.

Lindsey likes to talk about artistic freedom, but then vents frustration when his employers expect a return on their multi-million dollar investment.
When Warners passed on 'Gift of Screws,' he could have taken his music and gone elsewhere. Folding those songs into a more commercially viable Fleetwood Mac product wasn't his only option. But, perhaps it was his only option if he was hoping to make money on it.

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

He could have finished and released GOS in lieu of doing The Dance. He did not do that. He opted for the commercial venture, which he was still opting for five years later when SYW came into the picutre. I do not blame him one bit - just calling a spade a spade

Well, ace of spades, why don't you call Say Goodbye, Red Rover, Come, and Murrow overly commercial now, too?

These discussions between us will always be the same. You pinpoint the artist by his marketingchoices, and I pinpoint him by his musical guts.

I'm a audiovisual art-teacher. What was your job again?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

That is because he is in many ways beholden to the money - who wouldn't be. To me, that has nothing to do with artistic integrity....

I agree. The cold, hard fact is that we all need to make money. And, hopefully, we get to make money while also doing something that we love.
But, if we want to make money, then we HAVE to be willing to make compromises. If Warner Bros is going to invest a huge amount of money for an artist to record an album, they expect... rightfully so... to make that money back. It IS a business.

The fact that Lindsey recorded most of 'Under The Skin' in hotel rooms, is probably the single biggest reason why Warners is so laidback about sales figures this time around. They didn't have to give Lindsey a huge advance to record it. He handed them something he made on a shoe-string budget.
So even if 'UTS' sells no more than the usual amount of copies for a Lindsey Buckingham album, they're in the black.

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Lindsey likes to talk about artistic freedom, but then vents frustration when his employers expect a return on their multi-million dollar investment.
When Warners passed on 'Gift of Screws,' he could have taken his music and gone elsewhere. Folding those songs into a more commercially viable Fleetwood Mac product wasn't his only option. But, perhaps it was his only option if he was hoping to make money on it.

Well. Don't you also start mixing up artistic freedom with dumb marketingchoices, incoherent and inconsequent. All true. But that has nothing to do with the heartfelt passion for artistic freedom. Just acknowkedge that. I also say that his marketingstrategies are and were dumb. Thaqt's why I love the guy. He simply doesn't know how to do it because his artistic drive is constantly conflicting with it. Yes. And vice versa, before you are going to say that.

And about stevie: I talk about lindsey here. Everytime Strand or You come in the comparison with stevie is there. And THEN I react. Look at strands posts.

I love stevie, and she's made alot of better commercial choices than lindsey has. But today, Lindsey's music is alot more alive in my opinion than hers. She did that during his absence from the worlds stage, so I'm not blaming her. But her recent public appearances are sell outs. whatever you talk around it. Just calling a spade a spade.

[danax6]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

And about stevie: I talk about lindsey here. Everytime Strand or You come in the comparison with stevie is there. And THEN I react. Look at strands posts.

I love stevie, and she's made alot of better commercial choices than lindsey has. But today, Lindsey's music is alot more alive in my opinion than hers. She did that during his absence from the worlds stage, so I'm not blaming her. But her recent public appearances are sell outs. whatever you talk around it. Just calling a spade a spade.

What Lindsey does is most of the time irrelevant to what Stevie does, but I will say this... I don't agree with you calling Stevie a sell-out. If anything, she just doesn't have those 'guts' that Lindsey has to do anything outside the realm. That's her personality. Together, they are the yin to each other's yang, but on their own they are miles apart. It's not fair to compare them or call Stevie a sell-out because of that.

/end of Stevie talk in the Lindsey forum.

[#1LiddyBuckFan]

Just some random comments...

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

There was an interview for SYW where LB flat out says The Dance was about the money and, I think, the exposure it would get him to a world who had pretty much forgotten him.

Doesn't that make him a smart businessman? Even though it never happened...LOL His timing seems a little off with the whole marketing thing. LOL

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

As for SYW and what was he supposed to do, well he could have released the GOS songs online for free or for $1.00 a song after The Dance. I mean if artistic integrity is all he cares about, then why care if it sells or why use FM once again to sell it

The GOS songs were already online for free. I've had them for almost 7 years. Didn't he say he felt that that selection of songs would help redefine FM? I could be wrong. On top of the bonus with the cash cow of FM, more people would hear his songs...that's an artistic goal as well in my book.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I guess he truly is the artist torm between selling and art

Why do they have to be torn at all? I think most artists no matter who they are desire to sell their work. Nothing wrong with that. They want people to hear their stuff, they want to make money, and they want the affirmation. It goes together. Buckingham doesn't "pray to the commercial Gods" like some and he does push himself to create. That's what we all love about him but it's still a business. I don't see that as a crime. Does it send him to his knees when he doesn't sell a million copies? Only he can answer that, but I don't think it does.

The Dance...probably even SYW was about money. Great actors do the same thing. They go an do a box office's dream movie for the cash so they can fund/and or take a huge hit money wise on other worth while, not-so-commerical projects. I don't doubt their artistic ability for it. I say good for them!

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by danax6

What Lindsey does is most of the time irrelevant to what Stevie does, but I will say this... I don't agree with you calling Stevie a sell-out. If anything, she just doesn't have those 'guts' that Lindsey has to do anything outside the realm. That's her personality. Together, they are the yin to each other's yang, but on their own they are miles apart. It's not fair to compare them or call Stevie a sell-out because of that.

I don't call her a sell out. She's done enough during her career that made me intensely happy to say that. I said that the things she DID recently are sell-outs. Vegas, Henley, that godaweful sell-out-remake of one of the greatest gems ever-Dreams ( great new vocal but a desastrous cheap result), the crappy Stand Back during the footballthing and, I'm interested, but holding my breath for her new Isaak-cooperation. Touring with Petty? That was awesome. Sing with Petty and Vedder? I'd sick a mooses duck to have been there.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

Well. Don't you also start mixing up artistic freedom with dumb marketingchoices, incoherent and inconsequent. All true. But that has nothing to do with the heartfelt passion for artistic freedom. Just acknowkedge that. I also say that his marketingstrategies are and were dumb. Thaqt's why I love the guy. He simply doesn't know how to do it because his artistic drive is constantly conflicting with it. Yes. And vice versa, before you are going to say that.

I'm not even saying that he's made "dumb marketing choices" -- all I'm saying is that he's not a slave to Warner Bros. He could easily go elsewhere if he honestly and truly wanted to. So many other artists who were unhappy with the "marketing machine" have done that. It can be done... as long as you're willing to work for less.

[#1LiddyBuckFan]

Another note -

For whatever it's worth, I'm just happy that he's not resting on his laurels at this point...like everyone has said and heard...FM could tour as an oldies act forever and still make bundles of cash and maybe one day they'll do it. But right now, IMO, he's laid his soul on the table again in the form of UTS, he's pushing himself musically and he's still passionate about his work/performing. Everything else aside...that's a true artist.

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm not even saying that he's made "dumb marketing choices" -- all I'm saying is that he's not a slave to Warner Bros. He could easily go elsewhere if he honestly and truly wanted to. So many other artists who were unhappy with the "marketing machine" have done that. It can be done... as long as you're willing to work for less.

Again, I agree.
but he didn't do it obviously. Dumb. But still I understand that stretch. It's a wrestling game for him and he's said that often enough.