Interesting numbers...

[The Tower]

Originally posted by CarneVaca

Like it or not, all Stevie Nicks has given to Fleetwood Mac since 1982 is leftovers, most of which weren't very good. And that is all I was saying.

I have read and heard in numerous interviews from different sources within the band that, for the most part, Stevie usually offers up a large number of demos to the rest of the band and the band picks which songs will make it on the album. This has been stated fairly consistently over the last 20+ years.

For instance, Stevie has been quoted as saying that she offered 17 demos to Lindsey for him (as producer) to select for the upcoming album.

Also, on Tango in the Night, Fleetwood Mac as a band selected "When I See You Again" for inclusion on the album instead of "What Has Rock and Roll Ever Done for You?"

So the idea of Stevie controlling the content of FM albums isn't all it's cracked up to be. If any fans out there think that Stevie's FM output ain't so hot, then the band is at the very least partly responsible, if not more so. Granted, it may be possible that most or all of Stevie's material at the time was sub-par- however, I for one think that "Juliet" is one of Stevie's better efforts. I think that "Juliet" should have definitely been used in place of any one of the songs of Stevie's that made it onto Tango.

Who knows what other material Stevie offered during those sessions, and why it wasn't selected? "Smile at You", "The Dealer", "If You Were My Love" are all great demos that have been offered numerous times to FM over the years and been rejected for one reason or another.

This idea that artists have complete control over what gets out to the public is pretty much untrue. They have a voice, and when the going gets tough they can stand behind a song and say "This is going on the album no matter what!" But even that level of commitment still doesn't guarantee a song will make it to an album.

The Other Side of the Mirror was controlled by Rupert Hine. Behind the Mask was a restart of sorts, with FOUR songwriters and vocalists. Street Angel was created in a Klonopin haze. One can't really make Stevie 100% responsible for her output during those times. And besides, I for one think that some great music DID come out of those years:

Juliet
Ooh My Love
Ghosts
Desert Angel
Freedom
The Second Time
Love is Like a River
Jane

[sulamith]

Well said, Tower!

Check out this quote from Stevie from Bam magazine 10/23/87.
"In the studio, if Lindsey said the wall was gray, I would be absolutely sure it was pink. In oreder to get one of my songs on a record, I would have to say, OK, the wall is gray, Lindsey. Otherwise, it was the back of the bus. Now, this has nothing to do with the other members of Fleetwood Mac, who from the beginning, have always been lovely to me, have always known how important my songs were to me, whereas with Lindsey, he would rather I just stayed at home doing laundry. we are talking about a man who was in love with a woman, and would just as soon she faded out and just been his old lady or wife. Period."

Now my point with this is, the bitterness between S&L during those years played a big part, too. Stevie has talked about offering songs and Lindsey saying "Forget it! Not that one." So, it seems he would reject songs based on his like or dislike of the emotional content. If it was about a particular sensitve area of their relationship, it got vetoed. Even he said he reached a point where he didn't want arrange for her because his heart just wasn't in it anymore. He even said he hated to admit that, and you can tell he feels bad about it now.

I feel they are both at their best together. They balance and compliment each other so well. They have both had career highs and lows, but it seems Lindsey had the upper hand during the Tango era. Stevie was in a real bad emotional place, and her creativity did reflect that, but him not wanting to help her put out the best music she could at that time is really the equivalent of turning the knife a little, IMHO.

They were both playing emotional hardball, and they both got hurt real bad.

[CarneVaca]

Tower, no one has said artists "have complete control" of album content or that Stevie had control over content in FM albums. To be sure, few artists have total control. I would imagine folks like Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen don't have to justify to the labels why they chose the content they did. Having said that, I should point out that Stevie's use of FM as a dumping place for her solo leftovers in the 1980s is not a new notion. This was widely discussed back then. I respect your choices of 80s songs you like; I just don't happen to like those selections. And while she may have given FM more than three songs for Mirage and Tango respectively, the fact remains that with the exception of Gypsy, they were very low-quality stuff.

As for Sulasmith's comments, there's no doubt that Lindsey made life difficult for Stevie in the studio. But reading her comments, you get the sense she wants to be perceived as this little angel that had no choice in the matter. Meanwhile, Lindsey was pretty much one guy against the rest of the band, so I'm sure she wasn't as defenseless as she may want us to believe.

[sulamith]

No, Lindsey wasn't one guy against the rest of the band. Production responsibilites had pretty much been handed over to him by the other band members, so alot of things were his call. Mick has said so, and said it was that way because Lindsey has a good ear for production.

Maybe the songs she submitted were crap, so who knows, maybe his producer's ears didn't think they were good. But the ones we do know about, Juliet, for instance which Lindsey even arranged, Smile at You, Ooh My Love, and Planets, along with many others are good songs.

Just don't forget this is the same guy who wrote the song this very forum was named after, telling her "You're never gonna make it, baby".
As much as I love Lindsey, it is pretty evident part of him didn't want her to make it, so he decided to take away his support, which as a BANDMATE he owed to her, forget any past romantic entanglements. As a professional musician he did owe it to her as a colleage to make all of the music as good as possible. He did it with Gypsy and look what beautiful thing they created.

I know Stevie was a real handful during those years, but the main point was she was not offering leftovers. She was using what wasn't rejected, mainly on Tango.
Tusk was an emotional low point for him, Tango was for her.

[The Tower]

CarneVaca:

Well, I think you're missing my point.

I'm sure that very few FM fans actually know what songs Stevie offered FM during those periods. There could have been many demos offered that were better than what was selected. Who knows what was discarded because of hard feelings, etc.?

The fact that "Gypsy" didn't go on Bella Donna shows how much Stevie DOESN'T have control over what goes on her albums. I'm guessing its exclusion was due to Jimmy Iovine's decision making, or possibly the people behind Modern Records.

One only has to look at the struggle between "I Don't Wanna Know" and "Silver Springs" to see the difficulty over artistic control.

In any case, I think the basis of this debate is this: there are two camps- one group thinks that Stevie's "classic" material and vocals (White Album, Rumours, Tusk, Bella Donna) are superior to her "low period" material (Rock A Little, The Other Side of the Mirror, Behind the Mask, Street Angel)- the other group sees each album as a snapshot of the time in question and can find gems throughout her entire career.

It really IS a matter of each fans taste. I don't think there are any absolutes such as "And while she may have given FM more than three songs for Mirage and Tango respectively, the fact remains that with the exception of Gypsy, they were very low-quality stuff." That statement is not a "fact", it is an opinion.

I can understand why you don't like the material I listed. That's okay- not all of Stevie's stuff is for everyone. I just don't think her "low period" is quite as bad as you describe it. No biggie- just two differing opinions.

[CarneVaca]

Sulasmith, you're right. They both succumbed to personal enmities and recriminations, which may well have affected song choice. Both are probably to blame equally, but I was reacting to her comments, which were quite nasty and probably not-altogether true. As for Planets, Juliet and the others you mentioned having been rejected, that doesn't change my opinion of the songs. I don't particularly like them. Although, I'll admit Juliet is probably better than Welcome to the Room and When I See You again. But then we're talking differing levels of mediocrity, as far I'm concerned.

[sulamith]

Tower, I like your way of putting it, as far as being able to find gems throughout her career. When I listen to Stevie, it is always in context to what era she was in, so I guess I fall into that camp.

Carne, Yes, Stevie definitely had snotty things to say about Lindsey from 87 - 90, and yes she is prone to making mountains out of mole hills, I will agree!

I can also see your point about different levels of mediocrity. Stevie is really not for everyone, and no one can force a person to like something they don't. Admittedly, When I See you Again is not a fav of mine at all.
I will applaud you for having at least listened to her solo stuff, so at least you are able to comment on songs such as Juliet and Planets. There are some folks who can't debate intelligently because they have only listened to her FM work.

Hey, I'm cool with it!

[CarneVaca]

It's interesting to ready Tower's and Sulasmith's comments on listening to Stevie's stuff in the context of the times. It took me quite a while to come to terms with the fact that I did not like Rock a Little and Other Side of the Mirror. I listened, listened again and re-listened. I persuaded myself this was good stuff. Then I'd go back to the earlier music, and inevitably enjoy that far more. Already when Tango came out I couldn't deny it to myself: I don't like Stevie's stuff anymore, but I love the rest of the album. Yet I dutifully bought Mirror and tried very hard to like it. I even bought Street Angel, and probably listened to it five or six times.

So I really can't listen in the context of the times. As far as the quality, my opinions on that are obviously subjective. But there are objective ways of looking at whether a piece of music is good or bad. If you think about it, a lot of people like bad music, judging from the recent appeal of the likes of Spitney Beers and the Backscratch Toys.

[The Tower]

I still think most of Rock A Little stinks. "If I Were You", "Some Become Strangers", "Sister Honey", "Imperial Hotel", "The Nightmare" (<--- her worst song EVER in my opinion), are all pretty bad.

Tango in the Night is my least favorite FM album (Rumours era). I bought the album when it first came out in '87. I did NOT like it. After listening for awhile, I kinda got into the groove of the album. A week or so ago I pulled the CD out of the mothballs and listened to it. It doesn't hold up.

So.... tastes change, music changes, artists change- their voices change, etc., etc....

Hell, I even bought Time....

[sulamith]

You bought Time?

Even I"M not THAT hardcore!
LOL!!!

[Hawkeye]

Time's not THAT hardcore. It has some of Chris's best stuff. Sooner or Later is FANTASTIC. I definitly would tke time over behind the mask. I'm definitly in that group of people you mentioned Tower. I can't get ENOUGH of Bella Donna, wild heart, her tusk, rumours and white album stuff but it's all mediocre on Rock a little thru the awful BTM. The second time is NOT A SONG it's toxic waste. But i DO actually really like street angel, and TISl of course to me is a great comeback. I Love it. and i'd like to add that every stevie soundract song is great. And Gold and Braid isn't on any album that's in a class of it's own.

[The Tower]

Originally posted by Hawkeye


The second time is NOT A SONG it's toxic waste.

and i'd like to add that every stevie soundract song is great.

And Gold and Braid isn't on any album that's in a class of it's own.

Hmmm... that's odd, Hawkeye- I really love "The Second Time". I think it's very folky and wistful.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the soundtrack songs and, especially, "Gold and Braid". That song kicks ASS- and yet, it was left off of Bella Donna for whatever reason....

[Les]

Just don't forget this is the same guy who wrote the song this very forum was named after, telling her "You're never gonna make it, baby".

It's interesting to me that the assumption is made that all of this Tusk stuff was about Stevie. I know several people feel that way, but I don't view Tusk as Lindsey's big anti-Stevie statement. I don't view it at all as his emotional low point. In fact, judging from the way he lights up and talks about how exciting the whole process was, I think Tusk was his emotional high point.

Lindsey was surely venting all kinds of feelings on Tusk, but I don't actually see a lot of it necessarily having to do directly or at all with Stevie. The only song on Tusk that Lindsey has ever confirmed might even be a little bit about Stevie is "That's Enough for Me." It certainly doesn't mean other songs didn't also touch on her, but I think Lindsey was making a different kind of statement than just commenting on his ex anymore. A lot of his music was very intentionally raw and I think just stylistically speaking, that begs for a lyric to match. His songs were a concerted effort to veer from the mature, slick, shininess of "adult rock" that many began to mean in a derogatory way when discussing FM. The tone is the exhuberant venting of frustrations over the box he felt the music industry wanted to put them in.

"The Ledge" in particular is one that is so off-the-wall that I think it could apply to any number of things. Lindsey's lyrical style is one where he seems to try to create an emotional atmosphere through the use of specific visual images and the tone of his voice. Those, along with the music, are indicators of how the song feels, without necessarily providing you with a coherent story about why it feels that way. Sometimes it's the form that tells the story as much as any specific words. That's especially true of his faster Tusk songs. Each is just a flash of emotion that has to make the impression very quickly and then it's gone just as quickly - because that's often how emotions flash through your head.

That one particular line - "you're never gonna make it baby" - is one that bears some resemblance to the notion the swim coach planted in his mind - "you're nothing; you'll always be nothing." It's a challenge that probably wasn't ever far from Lindsey's head as he dealt with his own insecurities while trying to forge new courses, knowing that what he was doing was going to shock some people. Certainly he has written songs to other people, but I feel that a lot of Lindsey's song aren't about explaining a point to other people. They're about the raw internal thoughts flying through his head. I actually think a lot of what people view as his invective directed at Stevie is the hard and critical light in which he viewed himself, and his total commitment to the creative direction and stylistic choices he made for Tusk.

[David]

Originally posted by The Tower
Who knows what other material Stevie offered during those sessions, and why it wasn't selected? "Smile at You", "The Dealer", "If You Were My Love" are all great demos that have been offered numerous times to FM over the years and been rejected for one reason or another.

Christine once said (I think in the "Tango in the Night" listening party on a Florida radio station) that the band rejected relatively few of her songs over the years, whereas Stevie's songs have been rejected in much higher numbers. It might be that way because Christine tended to write only the number of songs needed for an album, but Stevie always brought in many more songs than were needed. In other words, it could have been just a numbers game.

I believe some personal acrimony was responsible for some of the rejected Stevie Nicks songs over the years, but probably not to the degree others think it was. I think that, in general, if the band thought the song would make a good track, & if Stevie was available to put a good vocal on it, the song would have been given a chance. Common sense makes me think that the rejection of a song for personal reasons would have to occur before the band recorded it, not after, which is why I never believed that "Silver Springs" was dumped for personal reasons. That song was completed & was ready to go, & was only dumped after it was ready to go. If a certain member of the band was pissy about "Silver Springs," he wouldn't have put all that work (his & the engineers' & the band members') into it just to dump it afterward. He'd have vetoed the idea to record it in the beginning. But the fact is that he (& all the others) created a beautiful track out of it; there's a lot of love on that track, from everyone. Lindsey says on the Rumours DVD that some of his most beautiful guitar work ever is on that track, so of course he'd have wanted that song released -- & it was released ... but the only room for it was the flip side of the 45 at the time.

In the same context, I have a hunch that some of Stevie's Fleetwood Mac rejects, like "Juliet" or "What Has Rock & Roll Ever Done For You" or "If You Were My Love," might have been rejected for technical rather than personal reasons. Sometimes the musicians work on something for days or weeks & it just doesn't come together: the ideas aren't flowing, the keyboardist is stuck for an appropriate arrangement, the guitarist doesn't have a good grasp on what sort of mood he's going for, the drummer can't get the cymbal sound he wants. It's just not working musically, & nobody's terrifically happy with the rough tracks -- maybe they're boring or they don't go anywhere or they just sound dumb. For studio moles like Fleetwood Mac, I'm sure that probably happened a lot.

[tommer]

Originally posted by Hawkeye
The second time is NOT A SONG it's toxic waste...
Enter Tango in the Night. 3 PATHETIC songs...
Even the much loved Seven Wonders sucked. and now even her live performances are horrible...
her freaking Behind the Mask songs, and crappy voice. The Second time was not a song it was something someone thwer up...

dude, you never cease to amaze me...
you DO know that posting wise remarks is better than posting ignorant ones, right?...