undereating?

[amber]

I give up. I see now it's no use. But at least you read those articles.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by amber

So maybe you should have "relaxed" before you jumped to the conclusion that I was wrong about milk, on the basis of your limited knowledge.

Please show me where exactly I said you were wrong about milk. Because I never said that. Maybe you thought I did, but I did't.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by amber

I give up. I see now it's no use.

Why? I'm just throwing out some other info, so people can make non-biased judgements. What's the problem? Why can you question things, but I can't? If I posted a bunch of one sided info about milk being the best food ever, I certainly would expect people to disagree, and welcome differences of opinion & more information & arguments against my opinion.

[hayley]

Originally Posted by amber

I give up. I see now it's no use. But at least you read those articles.

You give up what? She read your articles and is forming her own opinion about it. Which is all your loud mouth is giving- your opinion. What more can one ask?

[amber]

Originally Posted by skcin

Why? I'm just throwing out some other info, so people can make non-biased judgements. What's the problem? Why can you question things, but I can't? If I posted a bunch of one sided info about milk being the best food ever, I certainly would expect people to disagree, and welcome differences of opinion & more information & arguments against my opinion.

"I will say this - there is no study that definitively absolutely positively links milk to increased rates of cancer or diabetes. Is it possible? Of course. Is it definite? No."

This is your opinion that I disagree with, and also the part where you said you though milk was "fine in moderation." Also, I don't think 2-3 servings of dairy a day is 'moderation'. The food pyramid does, but the food pyramid is lame.
Again, ignoring so much data, to me, is remiss. Just previously with my articles, you didn't believe them, questioned them, etc. I have read about 1000 more studies that have the same, or similar conclusions. But I see now that that would not sway you either. So, if you don't believe all the data, for years and years, by scientists and doctors and nutritionists, then I really can't say much more - I think, judging by your responses to what I posted, that it is somewhat futile. So, that's fine. I really can't do much more than provide massive amounts of data to convince you, and it hasn't, so whatever. I give up.

I still maintain that milk is never a healthy food choice. It may not kill you if you don't drink much, but it might, and if you cut out dairy, your body would be much more healthy.

[amber]

Originally Posted by hayley

You give up what? She read your articles and is forming her own opinion about it. Which is all your loud mouth is giving- your opinion. What more can one ask?

I give up thinking that any data I provide will sway her opinion. I wasn't giving my opinion, I was giving data from other people's studies.
Once again you pop in to upbraid me in a conversation you had no interest in before. Funny how that works. Ooo, and you called me a name, too! It must be my birthday.

[skcin]

I guess I shouldn't post these now, since these studies show a differing opinion. But I took the time to find out some info so dammit, I'm posting them. Ignore them, if you wish. Some parts of these agree with portions of the information Amber posted, btw.

I'm not out to attack her or her information, just providing some different information. I think people should be aware of all factors - positive and negative, proven and theorized, old and new - so they can make informed decisions about what they want to eat. If you never want to eat dairy again, that's great. I hope you make it a point to get calcium for another source. If you decide to eat more dairy after reading all of this, I'm a bit perplexed, to be honest. But hey, your decision.

Calcium and vitamin D could help prevent PMS
By Betsy Querna
6/14/05
Nearly every woman dreads that time of the month, just before her period, when her insides cramp up, her head hurts, and the smallest misstep can incite anger or tears. Studies have shown that calcium supplements can sometimes make PMS symptoms go away quicker, but researchers from the University of Massachusetts, Harvard University, and the University of Iowa looked to see if calcium and vitamin D might stop PMS altogether.
What the researchers wanted to know: Do calcium and vitamin D prevent PMS?
What they did: Women who were enrolled in the Nurse's Health Study II, a large study of female registered nurses that has been going on since 1989, were eligible for this study. These women periodically completed food surveys that asked, in addition to other things, how often they ate calcium-rich foods like spinach and dairy, and how often they took calcium or vitamin D supplements. The researchers mailed some of the women a two-page questionnaire asking whether they had PMS symptoms. After they got the questionnaires back, they looked at the dietary habits of the 1,057 women who reported symptoms and the 1,068 who did not.
What they found: Women who had more vitamin D and calcium in their diets had less of a risk of PMS than other women. Women who got the vitamin D equivalent of at least seven cups of milk (nearly twice the recommended daily allowance) were 40 percent less likely to have symptoms of PMS than women who got the vitamin D equivalent of one cup of milk or less each day. Similarly, women who got the amount of calcium from food that was equal to at least 4 1/2 cups of milk (about 1 1/2 times the recommended daily allowance) were 30 percent less likely to suffer from PMS than women who took in less than half a cup of milk (or that equivalent in calcium) per day. Calcium intake from supplements was not associated with the risk of having PMS symptoms, though there may have been too few people in this group to adequately evaluate that risk.
What it means to you: When it's that time of the month, drink your milk, eat your spinach, and pack a yogurt in your lunch. Eating foods rich in calcium and vitamin D could help prevent PMS. Researchers say they're not sure exactly why, but it probably has something to do with how those nutrients fluctuate with changing levels of hormones. While there's no guarantee that you're not going to need a hot water bottle, some ibuprofen, or a bar of chocolate, drinking milk could help keep those monthly pains away.
Caveats: This study relied completely on women's self-reporting of their PMS symptoms and food intake habits. They asked the women to think back over several years; it's likely that some of the women did not remember accurately. But there's no reason to think that the women in either group would be less likely to remember than the other.

Organic milk health claims not supported by science
Tuesday, August 15th, 2006

Guest contributor: Karen Collins, M.S., R.D., C.D.N.
Karen Collins holds a B.S. degree from Purdue and an M.S. degree from Cornell, both in nutrition. When she’s not writing or speaking, she conducts a private nutrition practice in Jamestown, New York.
Demand for organic milk, which can sell for up to double the cost of other milk, is booming. Deciding whether to spend the extra money is not as clear-cut a decision as some suggest. People may turn to organic milk for health benefits, or environmental and animal rights’ issues. When evaluating the health claims, thus far, research does not support a health advantage of organic over conventional milk for any segment of the population.
The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) requires four characteristics to define milk as organic, and confusion abounds about each.
Bovine growth hormone. Milk that is labeled “USDA Organic” must come from cows that have not been treated with bovine growth hormone (BGH) to increase milk production. People who focus on this goal express concern that hormones in milk could raise the risk of hormone-related cancers, or lead to higher levels of an insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) linked with cancer.
However, BGH is a protein hormone, which means that if any does appear in milk, enzymes and acid in our digestive tract destroy it. Dale Bauman, a professor of animal science at Cornell University, emphasizes that if IGF-1 is slightly higher in milk from BGH-treated cows, it represents a tiny fraction of the IGF we all produce each day. Bauman reports that we would have to drink 95 quarts of milk to equal the IGF-1 we make daily in our saliva and other digestive tract secretions.
We need to differentiate between levels of IGF in our blood, which some studies link to a possible increase in cancer risk, and levels of IGF in our food. Several organic-related web sites refer to a study in which vegans (who eat no animal products) showed 13 percent lower IGF than non-vegans.
However, a closer look at that study shows that milk consumption was not related to blood levels of IGF. Research shows high blood levels of IGF are linked with overweight, lack of exercise, and diets too high in saturated fat, refined carbohydrates or total calories.
Antibiotics. A second characteristic of organic milk is that these cows are not treated with antibiotics. If a cow in an organic herd does need to be treated with antibiotics, she is not returned to the herd for a period of 12 months. Yet in conventional herds, milk from cows that receive antibiotics is not used until tests show it is antibiotic-free. Tanks of milk are routinely tested to ensure no antibiotic content.
Pesticides. A third requirement of organic milk is that cows’ feed is grown without pesticides, whether the feed is grass or grain. Recent USDA reports show that nonorganic milk may contain low levels of certain pesticides, but these are far below established tolerance levels. Using organic feed may support sustainable farming practices, yet research has not found it affects the nutritional value of the cows’ milk.
Access to pasture. The final requirement for organic milk is that cows must have “access to pasture.” Many consumers assume this means cows graze in fields most of the year. However, the current standard does not require a specific length of time in pasture. A cow can graze in pasture only a limited time and still produce milk that is certified organic.
On the question of grain- versus grass-fed cows, some suggest that pasture-fed cows may produce milk that contains more conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), a special type of fat that may protect against cancer and other health problems. But Michael Pariza, professor of food microbiology and toxicology at the University of Wisconsin, and a leading expert on CLA in dairy products, says grass feeding by itself does not assure increased CLA.
He and Bauman both note that cows fed mixed grains with soybeans or other additions can produce milk that has higher CLA levels than milk from grass-fed cows. This may lead you to spend less on milk and more on fruits, vegetables, whole grains, fish and other healthful foods.
(This article was provided by the American Institute for Cancer Research in Washington, D.C. A registered dietician is available to respond to questions about diet, nutrition, and cancer at the free AICR Hotline at 1 (800) 843-8114 during business hours.)

High dairy consumption reduces risk of type 2 diabetes in men
By John Roberts Ph.D.
Jul 28, 2005, 09:00


It's known that dairy consumption is linked to the insulin resistance syndrome among young obese adults. But a new study conducted by Hyon K. Choi and colleagues at Harvard University found that dairy intake may reduce the risk of type 2 diabetes in men.

The study, published recently in the journal Archives of Internal Medicine, followed 41,254 male participants who had no history of diabetes, cardiovascular disease or cancer when entering the Health Professionals Follow-up Study. During a 12-year follow-up, the study documented 1243 cases of type 2 diabetes.

The study found that dairy intake was associated with a lower risk of type 2 diabetes. After adjusting for other possible factors such as body mass index, physical activity, and other dietary factors, those in the top quintile, who consumed the highest amount of dairy products, were 23 percent less likely to have type 2 diabetes compared with those in the lowest quintile of diary intake.

Each serving of dairy per day is associated with a 9 percent lower risk of type 2 diabetes. Low-fat diary intake lowered the risk by 11 percent while high fat diary intake did not seem to lower the risk for type 2 diabetes.

JOURNAL OF EPIDEMIOLOGY AND COMMUNITY HEALTH
[Milk consumption, stroke, and heart attack risk: evidence from the Caerphilly cohort of older men J Epidemiol Community Health 2005; 59: 502-5]
Newswise — A diet rich in milk does not increase the risk of heart disease and stroke, and may even be protective, concludes research in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.
The research team asked a representative sample of 764 men to weigh and record every item of food and drink they consumed for seven consecutive days. Just under 90% of the sample (665) produced complete and detailed diaries.
The men, who were all aged between 45 and 59, were taking part in the Caerphilly Cohort Study, which was set up between 1979 and 1983.
They were given comprehensive health check-ups, including a heart tracing (ECG) at the start of the study and subsequently every five years for a period of 20 years. Hospital and family doctor records were also checked.
During the study period, 54 men had a stroke and 139 developed symptomatic ischaemic heart disease (heart attack or angina), and 225 died.
At the start of the study, virtually all milk consumption was whole (full fat) milk, but a random sample of the surviving men in 2000, showed that almost all of them had switched to skimmed or semi skimmed milk within the preceding eight years.
Men who consumed the most milk every day (a pint or more) had a higher energy intake, suggesting that they were more active. Cholesterol levels and blood pressure readings were similar in high and low milk consumers (less than half a pint), and men who drank the least milk tended to drink the most alcohol.
Men who drank the most milk had a lower risk of ischaemic heart disease or stroke than those who drank the least, and in the case of stroke this risk was significantly lower. The findings held true even for those men who had started out drinking full fat milk.
The authors suggest that milk has had something of a bad press in respect of its impact on cholesterol, and they conclude: "The present perception of milk as harmful, in increasing cardiovascular risk, should be challenged, and every effort should be made to restore it to its rightful place in a healthy diet."

Bone-density study
The guidelines' advisory committee report came to the opposite conclusion, and cited five of eight studies that found "milk product consumption significantly associated with reduced fracture risk" -- but didn't provide information on actual fractures. The studies measured bone density, "a strong predictor of fracture."
There are other reasons that Americans might have weaker bones even though they consume more calcium and dairy -- high consumption of protein as well as phosphates from carbonated soft drinks, both of which leach calcium from bones. Plus, Americans don't get enough bone-building exercise.
Marion Nestle, the NYU nutritionist who has documented industry's influence on food policy, says the typical American diet contributes to calcium losses, compared to countries where people eat more fruits, vegetables and grains.
"What is clear is that the reason the calcium level is set so high is to compensate," Nestle says.
It's a chicken-and-egg thing, with experts like Nestle and Willett saying it would be better to change our diet than to keep ratcheting up the dairy and calcium.

“A Prospective Study of Dairy Intake and the Risk of Type 2 Diabetes in Women” – was published in the July 2006 issue of Diabetes Care (the journal of the American Diabetes Association), and provides further support that low-fat dairy may be associated with reduced risk of type 2 diabetes.

The epidemiological study included more than 37,000 middle-aged (48-62 years old) health professional women over a 10 year period (from the Women’s Health Study) and found that "each serving-per-day increase in dairy intake was associated with a 4% lower risk of type 2 diabetes."

Study participants who were in the highest quintile of daily dairy intake (>2.9 servings) had a 21 percent reduced risk of developing type 2 diabetes than those in the lowest quintile of daily dairy intake(<0.85 servings); providing further support for the Dietary Guideline’s recommendation for three daily servings of dairy. Although the results were self reported, researchers note that the health professional characteristic of this study cohort may suggest the results are more valid.

The researchers conclude that "a dietary pattern that incorporates higher low-fat dairy products may lower the risk of type 2 diabetes in middle-aged or older women.” Additional findings to note:

Researchers initially found women with higher intake of lower-fat dairy generally had healthier lifestyle patterns. Inversely, women with higher intake of higher-fat dairy foods had less healthy lifestyle patterns. However, among those consuming more low-fat dairy, when researchers adjusted for these improved lifestyle factors, low-fat dairy was still associated with reduced risk of type 2 diabetes.

Findings suggest that dairy has an effect on the incidence of type 2 diabetes, independent of individual dietary factors of calcium, vitamin D, magnesium, fat, fiber and glycemic load. Researchers also found dairy consumption’s effect on incidence of type 2 diabetes to be independent of BMI.

Authors noted that exact mechanisms are unclear, but suggest there are favorable effects of dairy foods in the diet beyond type 2 diabetes, such as improved BMI, blood pressure, cardiovascular health and reduced risk of insulin resistance syndrome.

Los Angeles Times, March 21, 2006
For decades, biochemists and physiologists in the dog-eat-dog world of sports-drink technology have struggled to find the perfect elixir -- the right balance of carbohydrates, electrolytes, protein and fluid to keep athletes in peak form after various types of exercise.
So it was big news when exercise-kinesiology professor Joel Stager and co-workers at Indiana University in Bloomington declared they had stumbled upon the perfect drink for elite cyclists recovering their energy after strenuous exercise.
That beverage was chocolate milk.
In three trials administered at one-week intervals, nine male cyclists performed a strenuous workout, then drank one of three drinks. One group got standard 2-percent chocolate milk, another drank fluid- and electrolyte-replenishing Gatorade, and a third group drank Endurox R4, a specially formulated beverage with a "patented 4 to 1 ratio of carbohydrates to protein" and other ingredients aimed at replenishing muscle glycogen stores and helping rebuild muscle. Then, after a rest, the cyclists exercised again, this time to exhaustion.
The study, published in the February issue of the International Journal of Sports Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, and funded in part by the dairy industry, reported that cyclists who drank chocolate milk at the break were able to continue cycling about 50 percent longer than those who drank Endurox R4 and about equally as long as those who drank Gatorade.
Some sports nutritionists weren't surprised by the results. "I've been touting chocolate milk for years," says Felice Kurtzman, sports nutritionist for UCLA's athletic department.
"Chocolate milk provides carbohydrates, calcium, other trace minerals," she says. "And the important thing is that the kids drink it. I can tell you from our training table that football drinks it, swimming drinks it, track drinks it."

February 15, 2006 – The Women’s Health Initiative study (as reported by the New England Journal of Medicine press release, Feb. 16, 2006), found that calcium and vitamin D supplements in healthy, postmenopausal women provide a modest benefit in preserving bone mass and prevention of hip fractures in certain groups of older women but did not prevent other types of fractures. While these findings are important, they don’t diminish the recognized value of milk and milk products in helping people build strong bones over the course of a lifetime.
Key Facts:
Most of the women in the study had adequate calcium intake before the intervention. There is a threshold effect with calcium as with most nutrients: once you're consuming an adequate amount, more doesn’t mean additional health benefits.
The new study examined the impact of supplements, not food.
The 2004 Surgeon General’s Report on Bone Health and Osteoporosis emphasizes the importance of including calcium and vitamin D-rich foods like milk, cheese and yogurt in the diet to help prevent osteoporosis.
Research published in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition in 2000 by prominent calcium and bone expert Robert P. Heaney, MD, of Creighton University in Omaha suggests that a diet devoid of milk and milk products could lead to bone fractures.
The U.S. Dietary Guidelines recommend 3 servings of fat-free and low-fat milk and milk products each day to help provide adequate calcium – a vital mineral that was identified as a “nutrient of concern” because of widespread under-consumption

[mikeschmike]

Well good, now that that's settled, both of you get your asses over to my thread and suggest some music for me. I would have thought Paula would have spoken up, given our short but passionate history together.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by amber

"I will say this - there is no study that definitively absolutely positively links milk to increased rates of cancer or diabetes. Is it possible? Of course. Is it definite? No."

This is your opinion that I disagree with, and also the part where you said you though milk was "fine in moderation." Also, I don't think 2-3 servings of dairy a day is 'moderation'. The food pyramid does, but the food pyramid is lame.
Again, ignoring so much data, to me, is remiss. Just previously with my articles, you didn't believe them, questioned them, etc. I have read about 1000 more studies that have the same, or similar conclusions. But I see now that that would not sway you either. So, if you don't believe all the data, for years and years, by scientists and doctors and nutritionists, then I really can't say much more - I think, judging by your responses to what I posted, that it is somewhat futile. So, that's fine. I really can't do much more than provide massive amounts of data to convince you, and it hasn't, so whatever. I give up.

I still maintain that milk is never a healthy food choice. It may not kill you if you don't drink much, but it might, and if you cut out dairy, your body would be much more healthy.

When did I ever say I didn't believe your articles? Show me. I want to see. Seriously. I don't want to fight with you, but sheebus. All I'm doing is questioning what they're saying - don't you question things? You don't automaticaly believe everything the NIH says even though they have studies & evidence to support their ideas, do you?

Everyone SHOULD question information given to them, and not believe everything they read. Nor should they blow off things they read that may not support what they know or believe. Did you read my replies to your article? There was more than one instance where I agreed, or said that's an interesting connection. I did not ignore, I did not say they're untrue.


Your opinion about milk is OK by me - just like you don't give a **** if I drink it, I really don't give a **** that you don't. But it's your opinion that you're healthier because of it, not a proven fact. I'm glad you feel better since you stopped drinking it. Maybe I'll try & see if I feel awesome too.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by mikeschmike

Well good, now that that's settled, both of you get your asses over to my thread and suggest some music for me. I would have thought Paula would have spoken up, given our short but passionate history together.

I know, I know. I've been thinking hard about music to recommend. And you are my newest gay boyfriend, it seems, so I really shouldn't let our relationship suffer just because I'm so busy with milk. I'm sorry. Please don't break up with me.

[DrummerDeanna]

[skcin]

^ You are going to be in so much trouble for posting that!

Seriously, several groups are trying to get them (FDA? ****, I can't recall) to prevent the milk people from telling everyone that dairy consumption helps people lose weight, cuz apparently there's not enough scientific evidence to prove it & it may be false asvertising. Lemme see if I can find the article....

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by skcin

^ You are going to be in so much trouble for posting that!

Seriously, several groups are trying to get them (FDA? ****, I can't recall) to prevent the milk people from telling everyone that dairy consumption helps people lose weight, cuz apparently there's not enough scientific evidence to prove it & it may be false asvertising. Lemme see if I can find the article....

Yeah - it's the CALCIUM that helps I believe - not the actual Milk - and the yogurt promoting good tummy health - that's can help in the weight loss thing...

But yeah - Whole Milk? wilL NEVER help anyone lose weight.

[skcin]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Yeah - it's the CALCIUM that helps I believe - not the actual Milk - and the yogurt promoting good tummy health - that's can help in the weight loss thing...

But yeah - Whole Milk? wilL NEVER help anyone lose weight.

The issue is that there are other ways of obtaining calcium than from milk (I know you know this, btw)- in other words, it's just as beneficial to get it from spinach, or fortified OJ, or supplements than from milk. That's what they don't like about the ad campaign, it seems to imply milk is the only way.

[amber]

Originally Posted by skcin

Why? I'm just throwing out some other info, so people can make non-biased judgements. What's the problem? Why can you question things, but I can't? If I posted a bunch of one sided info about milk being the best food ever, I certainly would expect people to disagree, and welcome differences of opinion & more information & arguments against my opinion.

You refuted almost every single point there. I think everything you said is wrong, or at best a specious argument. (based on my years of study). Except that doctors don't recommend milk for infants, that was right. But people still feed their infants milk.
Also, it appears to me from your responses that your info may be dated, or that you haven't seen the huge amount of studies I have. I say that because when you say "it doesn't say if they included other factors" and points like that - I've seen all the info where they did take all factors into account. And when scientist and doctors do population studies of that nature, they use control factors/groups, and do the studies in the way of "all other things being equal". I figured you knew that.

But it doesn't matter, because what you said indicates to me that I could post info until I was blue in the face and you still wouldn't be convinced.
So, that's fine. I've done all I can do to warn people of the massive health benefits attained by cutting dairy. Or, not all I can, but all anyone will accept.
Even some of the things you guys are posting above I know are wrong. Hahahaha. I guess I should stop looking, or trying. Milk is a terrible, non absorbing way to get calcium and vitamin D, totally counterproductive.