A Religious Leader Who Isn't An Idiot

[Johnny Stew]

'What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality,' by Daniel A. Helminiak

[becca]

God doesn't change

God creates right? So when has it ever been that a creative being has not grown and changed? Ask any creative person. You are imposing your idea upon God with a statement like that. Basically the Bible is a collection of works by man about God. I don't know anybody who has studied the Bible who says anything otherwise, including every Pope I would imagine. Dr. Laura is typical of the kinds of lazy minded no-nothings who call themselves Christian as the open letter to her beautifully demonstates. So often I have nitwits at the door with their full color pamphlets and I could swear their Bible and mine have nothing in common if they ever even bother to read theirs. Essentially I'm a Gideon by the way. You would hope that we really could have at least gotten more educated, and the amazing success of the Da Vinci Code also proves how little the average person really knows about the holy book and it's creation and evolution.

People speaking for God are nothing new, nor is the percentage who produce fruits of negativity by which ye shall know them! The hell and brimstone some seek to command will be theirs but not to command, they will have it when the sword comes around full circle to the double edged side we are told.

Love you neighbor, love your enemy, only that way is change possible. People's mere existance being a sin is not something I can agree with at all, it says God made mistakes in creating. Only the Gnostics (and maybe the Buddhist Jainists) believe in simple existence being a sin.

[becca]

P.S.

I expect God also sees hidden things like a person's motivation, so the innocent person who parrots the talking points brought up by a self righteous public prayer type will be known, but we can't always know and should love them anyway. Even those who do believe in homosexuality being a sin are told to let he who is without sin cast the first stone and see the timber in your own eye first.

If it is wrong or a sin for you speak for yourself. I can't eat crab meat as I'm allergic to it, but that does not mean crabs or people who eat them are evil or sinning, nor does it mean that nobody should eat it because it is wrong for me to. God created an amazing variety and in variety there is strength. This is the God I meet every day through His creations, the God I read about in the divenly inspired writings of many people. Let those who have ears listen Jesus says.

[foxyluva]

I think the point is that people pick and choose what they want to believe in in the Bible. If you believe that homosexual people are sinning because the act on their feelings - then you must believe that people who wear clothes of mixed fabrics, eat rare meat etc. are sinning as well

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

'What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality,' by Daniel A. Helminiak

Interesting. I read a few of the reviews. It was telling that there are references to Boswell. That book was a dry, heavy brick of a read. This looks like it might be easier to digest. While I felt at times Boswell was stretching a bit, I think I might pick this up for the heck of it when I have a lapse in the book heap. Good suggestion.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Sahara

So Jesus gave us a new commandment -- to love God, and to love one another. Homosexuality directly contradicts love for God, and if anyone wants me to explain why, I will.

Did anyone else catch this?

Okay, since that flies in the face of everything I perceive as logical, I'll ask you to explain. I can't resist.
Unless the explanation is something like: "Because god doesn't like homosexuals, so if you are homosexual, you could not possibly love god, or else you would do what god wants."

Or if it's something like "God wants us to procreate, and homosexuals don't have children, so if you are homosexual you aren't having children, therefore don't love god."

If the explanation is anything but those two things, I'm very interested.

[sparky]

You know, it's a head against a brick wall, but one of the things that has always bothered me about some religious people is their insistence on dwelling on the negative behaviors of everyone. I don't see a lot of LOVE in the actions of most. I don't see a lot charity in the actions of most. Having read the bible more than once and having thought about it quite a lot, I find I am most interested in the current movement known as the What Would Jesus Do group. It makes me think.

If Jesus were walking about the earth right now, what do I think he would do ?

Hm.

Possibilites :

1. He'd be in Iraq, trying to administer to men and woman who have had their guts torn out of their bodies by artillery and are dying in the sand.

2. Trying to talk sense into people in the middle east who like to cut the heads of other human beings off and film it.

3. Tending to the battered women and children.

4. Feeding the starving.

5. Helping the countless crystal meth addicts desperately crawling about our cities. And soothing the open sores on their bodies.

6. Trying to find and speak to the one shread of humantiy left in the heart of a serial killer on death row.

7. Washing the feet of an elderly person who has been abandoned by their family and has no money, no food, and no ONE.

What I doubt Jesus would be doing...

1. Lobbying congress to deny people the right to marry.

2. Picketing funerals.

3. Blowing up abortion clinics.

4. Arguing with people about who they love.

5. Legislating anything.

6. Threatening anyone.

7. Posting on a message board telling people what a sin is and isn't.

Last I heard, the main message is God Is Love.

Why do most Christians get a bad rap ?

They forgot this message so long ago, they couldn't define it or live it to save their lives. Not to mention their souls.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Sahara

Being homosexual is not wrong ~ it's the decision (THEIR decision) to act on it and engage in homosexual acts that is wrong.

Yikes.

What kind of nonsense is this? That's like saying having the ability to breathe is not wrong, its the decision to breathe and acting upon it that's wrong.

I guess I'm just surprised that people in the day and age still choose to believe that homosexuality is nothing more than a controllable urge, like a craving for butterscoth pudding.

[Sahara]

Originally Posted by sparky

Posting on a message board telling people what a sin is and isn't.

This place is to express opinions, for debate, right? That's what we're doing.
EDIT: Besides, I would have thought that'd be exactly what He'd be doing. Telling about the Word of His Father?

Originally Posted by amber

Okay, since that flies in the face of everything I perceive as ogical, I'll ask you to explain. I can't resist.

OK, here goes:
Basically this is what it comes down to: life is a gift from God. Life is sacred, the purpose of sex is to create life, therefore sex is sacred also. A sacred bond between man and woman, as God intended it to be. Sex is for procreation, not recreation. The purpose of sex is to create life and therefore anything which gets in the way of that gift of life (eg contraception -- no, I'm not getting into a debate on that -- or homosexuality) is defying the will of God.
You use the phrase "if you are homosexual" -- again, being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act that is.
It's perfectly possible to be homosexual and love God, but homosexuality (I believe) is a trial -- can we love God enough to do what he wants us to do?
Hope that answers your question.

Originally Posted by Red

Yikes.

What kind of nonsense is this? That's like saying having the ability to breathe is not wrong, its the decision to breathe and acting upon it that's wrong.

I guess I'm just surprised that people in the day and age still choose to believe that homosexuality is nothing more than a controllable urge, like a craving for butterscoth pudding.

That analogy makes zero sense, sex is not essential for survival, breathing is. Again, you're missing my point -- being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act, which is controllable. It's about self-restraint, doing what God wants and not merely what the flesh tells us to.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by sparky

Possibilites :

1. He'd be in Iraq, trying to administer to men and woman who have had their guts torn out of their bodies by artillery and are dying in the sand.

2. Trying to talk sense into people in the middle east who like to cut the heads of other human beings off and film it.

3. Tending to the battered women and children.

4. Feeding the starving.

5. Helping the countless crystal meth addicts desperately crawling about our cities. And soothing the open sores on their bodies.

6. Trying to find and speak to the one shread of humantiy left in the heart of a serial killer on death row.

7. Washing the feet of an elderly person who has been abandoned by their family and has no money, no food, and no ONE.

What I doubt Jesus would be doing...

1. Lobbying congress to deny people the right to marry.

2. Picketing funerals.

3. Blowing up abortion clinics.

4. Arguing with people about who they love.

5. Legislating anything.

6. Threatening anyone.

7. Posting on a message board telling people what a sin is and isn't.

Last I heard, the main message is God Is Love.

Why do most Christians get a bad rap ?

They forgot this message so long ago, they couldn't define it or live it to save their lives. Not to mention their souls.

EXACTLY!!!! Jane Fonda addresses this in her book as well - she says something to the effect of the men in power today who lean so heavily on their religion and faith would be the first to call Jesus "soft" and persecute him if he were alive today because he so does not personify anything that the people in power display.

So you made an excellent point above!!!

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by Sahara

OK, here goes:
Basically this is what it comes down to: life is a gift from God. Life is sacred, the purpose of sex is to create life, therefore sex is sacred also. A sacred bond between man and woman, as God intended it to be. Sex is for procreation, not recreation. The purpose of sex is to create life and therefore anything which gets in the way of that gift of life (eg contraception -- no, I'm not getting into a debate on that -- or homosexuality) is defying the will of God.

LOL...I just can't help myself. So with that logic pretty much the only people who can have sex are those who are capable of having children. The notion that sex is "bad" if it's not for the purpose of procreation is something that was cooked up by MEN in power at the time the books of the Bible were written.

Sorry all you elderly women who've gone through "the change"

, you can't have sex anymore. If you do you are a sinner and an abomination.

Sorry all you infertile men and women..tough break, no more sex for you - if you have sex without reproducing you're a big fat sinner.

Sorry all you people who use birth control pills - even if it's for health reasons - you are a sinner.


In the end we are all free to believe what we want - but I think it's wrong for mere mortals to pass ANY judgement onto other about what is deemed "sinful"

[The Catdancer]

Originally Posted by Sahara

This place is to express opinions, for debate, right? That's what we're doing.
EDIT: Besides, I would have thought that'd be exactly what He'd be doing. Telling about the Word of His Father?



OK, here goes:
Basically this is what it comes down to: life is a gift from God. Life is sacred, the purpose of sex is to create life, therefore sex is sacred also. A sacred bond between man and woman, as God intended it to be. Sex is for procreation, not recreation. The purpose of sex is to create life and therefore anything which gets in the way of that gift of life (eg contraception -- no, I'm not getting into a debate on that -- or homosexuality) is defying the will of God.
You use the phrase "if you are homosexual" -- again, being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act that is.
It's perfectly possible to be homosexual and love God, but homosexuality (I believe) is a trial -- can we love God enough to do what he wants us to do?
Hope that answers your question.



That analogy makes zero sense, sex is not essential for survival, breathing is. Again, you're missing my point -- being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act, which is controllable. It's about self-restraint, doing what God wants and not merely what the flesh tells us to.

So God created us with feelings for someone of the same gender but we can't act on it? That's just cuel and in my world God is not a cruel God, He is the God of love. But in your opinion we shouldn't love someone of the same gender, we should get married to someone who we don't like to share the rest of our lives with, have sex with that person which we really don't want to do but we have to in order to create life and we secretly have feelings for the neighbor because he/she is THE ONE. But we can't 'act' on it because it's a sin??? That's a good recipe for a nice life.... NOT!!!!
And about Jesus, no He didn't throw the book out of the window but He didn't say anything against homosexuality either. To my knowledge it's never mentioned in the New Testament. He was all about love and that's what this is all about. We're not all about sex. Do you think we're hanging from the chandeliers every second of every day??? We love someone, a person and that person happens to be of the same gender.
Tell me something, when you love someone and you're willing to spend the rest of your life with him, are you only going to have sex 4 times because you want 4 children????

[Red]

Originally Posted by Sahara

That analogy makes zero sense, sex is not essential for survival, breathing is. Again, you're missing my point -- being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act, which is controllable. It's about self-restraint, doing what God wants and not merely what the flesh tells us to.

You're not understanding what I'm saying - love and sex are inherent in human beings. We're made that way aren't we? God equipped us with feelings emotions to seperate us from the animals (so to speak anyway, that's a whole other debate right there). Are you saying you can contol love? That you can control the natural feelings you have toward another human being? You are capable of this?

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by Red

You're not understanding what I'm saying - love and sex are inherent in human beings. We're made that way aren't we? God equipped us with feelings emotions to seperate us from the animals (so to speak anyway, that's a whole other debate right there). Are you saying you can contol love? That you can control the natural feelings you have toward another human being? You are capable of this?

Well I think what she was saying is that SEX can be controlled. Not love per se, but humans CAN control whether or not they have sex. They can't control who they love and how they love but the sex can be decided upon. Whereas air - well that's not a decision - we pretty much HAVE to breathe in order to survive, whereas we don't have to have sex to survive (lol - that's something that is just begging to be argued against )

I think that's what she is saying.

It's still not a great argument in my opinion. You don't tell married infertile couples that they're free to love one another - it's just not cool if they have sex.

[The Catdancer]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

LOL...I just can't help myself. So with that logic pretty much the only people who can have sex are those who are capable of having children. The notion that sex is "bad" if it's not for the purpose of procreation is something that was cooked up by MEN in power at the time the books of the Bible were written.

Sorry all you elderly women who've gone through "the change"

, you can't have sex anymore. If you do you are a sinner and an abomination.

Sorry all you infertile men and women..tough break, no more sex for you - if you have sex without reproducing you're a big fat sinner.

Sorry all you people who use birth control pills - even if it's for health reasons - you are a sinner.


In the end we are all free to believe what we want - but I think it's wrong for mere mortals to pass ANY judgement onto other about what is deemed "sinful"

Very good points