This makes me see red! What is wrong with these people?

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by amber

No, I merely stated that I read a larger portion of enviro news than perhaps most, so maybe Strand hadn't seen the same information as I had. In fact, I never even made a value statement about that, either - You know, I didn't say I was better because of what I read.
Additionally, I never claimed or talked about what conservation/socially responsible actions I do or do not take. Not one mention.
I know what Jason's point was, I just don't want him to make up something I am talking about, then insult me about it. That's my point. And no, I don't drive a car, which is the first time I've mentioned anything about my habits here in this thread.
Also, I just want to add that many people are not hypocritical, and act according to what they believe even if it is more inconvenient than another choice. Some do in small ways, some in large. Thank goodness.

when you say this

But then, I'm the kind of person who looks for that, maybe you just haven't seen the same news as me.

you come across as though you're somehow better for doing so.

I know that I would LOVE to be able to buy organic, but I can barely afford to shop for food at ALL. so there goes a chance for me to make a difference.
But we all wear clothes and Monsanto and DuPont are heinous big name corporations that we all patronize because the market is flooded with nothing but their products.

Big AG forces out small family farms, but I cant afford to buy from the little guy, even though I wish I could...

I guess if we care we will do what we can and increase it as our ability to do better increases.

and if anyone is serious about choosing green companies, the greenpages link I posted a page or two back is a good resource to find green companies and free trade companies.

by the way, I also want to congratulate you Amber on 4months smoke free. I know thats a very hard habit to quit...

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by amber

P.S. - Smoke free for four months now, hurrah!

Way to go Amber! That's really great. I've never smoked, but my sister just quit recently so I know how hard it can be. Good for you!

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

I think Jason's point was that people IN GENERAL are guilty of hypocrisy because when push comes to shove a lot of people will push aside their beliefs for various reasons (I myself cant afford to shop as green as I would like)
and he gave examples that pertained to you in particular that seemed to show your hypocrisy (smoking, plane trip)

I disagree - if when push comes to shove you cast aside your standards because of some other influence, then the result becomes your standards. If your beliefs are that fragile, then you can't claim to hold them, can you?

For instance if you moan about air pollution and fossil fuels disappearing, and you drive a four-litre SUV, then your green credentials are just zero.

[DavidMn]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

I disagree - if when push comes to shove you cast aside your standards because of some other influence, then the result becomes your standards. If your beliefs are that fragile, then you can't claim to hold them, can you?

For instance if you moan about air pollution and fossil fuels disappearing, and you drive a four-litre SUV, then your green credentials are just zero.

Exactly. I might sound ignorant in asking this, but what would youn say is the general attitude of the English poeple towards gays? Are you guys pretty open? hostile? I dont mean to paint with a broad brush, just curious.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by DavidMn

Exactly. I might sound ignorant in asking this, but what would youn say is the general attitude of the English poeple towards gays? Are you guys pretty open? hostile? I dont mean to paint with a broad brush, just curious.

Pretty open really - especially in the cities. I'm sure that in some rural areas it's still a bit frowned upon, but generally there's no problem. Just as an example, not so long ago if an entertainer came out then his career would be killed stone dead, but now it seems to be an advantage

[DavidMn]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Pretty open really - especially in the cities. I'm sure that in some rural areas it's still a bit frowned upon, but generally there's no problem. Just as an example, not so long ago if an entertainer came out then his career would be killed stone dead, but now it seems to be an advantage

Well, that's good to hear. I never had a problem the 2 times I was there. You're a pretty nice bunch of people actually.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

I disagree - if when push comes to shove you cast aside your standards because of some other influence, then the result becomes your standards. If your beliefs are that fragile, then you can't claim to hold them, can you?

For instance if you moan about air pollution and fossil fuels disappearing, and you drive a four-litre SUV, then your green credentials are just zero.

it takes money to be that principled. as I said, I cant afford to shop organic, though I would love to. It doesnt change my beliefs, but I cant realize my preference because the choice is to starve which I practially do anyway since I only buy food once every 3 months or so. (aside from milk eggs and bread which I get at my gas station)

I also dont believe in the willy nilly harvesting of trees but I live in a wooden house. So, whenever possible, I actively campaign against wasteful logging rules, conserve/recycle paper and plant trees.

By the way, there are mitigating actions that can reduce fossil fuel emissions and CA is quite successful in reducing smog emissions. Im not moaning about fossil fuels going bye bye, however I do think pollution is something that should be addressed and there is more than one way to skin a cat.
It is possible to be a good steward of resources (use them wisely) rather than lock them up and not use them ever again.
Alternatively there are OTHER energy sources I think we should be exploring.

so, yes I drive a jeep, but the last smog test I took, the emissions were so low, they were far better than the standard recommended. Sorry about that chief.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by DavidMn

Well, that's good to hear. I never had a problem the 2 times I was there. You're a pretty nice bunch of people actually.

Aw, you're so kind

[DavidMn]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Aw, you're so kind

I'm pretty easy to get along with actually. Not too much bothers me. I look at it this way. Is it really worth it to stay mad over something that youll forget the next day?

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

it takes money to be that principled. as I said, I cant afford to shop organic, though I would love to. It doesnt change my beliefs, but I cant realize my preference because the choice is to starve which I practially do anyway since I only buy food once every 3 months or so. (aside from milk eggs and bread which I get at my gas station)

I also dont believe in the willy nilly harvesting of trees but I live in a wooden house. So, whenever possible, I actively campaign against wasteful logging rules, conserve/recycle paper and plant trees.

By the way, there are mitigating actions that can reduce fossil fuel emissions and CA is quite successful in reducing smog emissions. Im not moaning about fossil fuels going bye bye, however I do think pollution is something that should be addressed and there is more than one way to skin a cat.
It is possible to be a good steward of resources (use them wisely) rather than lock them up and not use them ever again.
Alternatively there are OTHER energy sources I think we should be exploring.

so, yes I drive a jeep, but the last smog test I took, the emissions were so low, they were far better than the standard recommended. Sorry about that chief.

Sorry, I wasn't specifically addressing you - now I look at the real car thread and find you do drive an SUV - honest coincidence

Organic food is expensive, no doubt about that, but here at least it's possible to be discerning without spending a fortune. Since you do drive a Jeep, how come you don't buy something that drinks less gas? I used to work for them and their cars were soooo thirsty. Maybe then you could afford to eat? A lot of people here are converting Cherokees to LPG which saves heaps of money. My van runs on LPG and it's half the price of ordinary fuel. Although having said that, you guys pay a lot less for regular fuel than we do, so maybe there's not so much advantage in switching.

There's nothing wrong with harvesting trees if the timber isn't wasted - wooden houses are a great example, they last for ages and there's no wastage. As you say, it's the wasteful logging which does the damage. People here are starting to look at wind turbines to power their homes too, which is great.

I suddenly realise how off-topic I am

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by DavidMn

I'm pretty easy to get along with actually. Not too much bothers me. I look at it this way. Is it really worth it to stay mad over something that youll forget the next day?

Quite right. I have my breaking point, but I can't remember the last time I reached it

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Sorry, I wasn't specifically addressing you - now I look at the real car thread and find you do drive an SUV - honest coincidence

Organic food is expensive, no doubt about that, but here at least it's possible to be discerning without spending a fortune. Since you do drive a Jeep, how come you don't buy something that drinks less gas? I used to work for them and their cars were soooo thirsty. Maybe then you could afford to eat? A lot of people here are converting Cherokees to LPG which saves heaps of money. My van runs on LPG and it's half the price of ordinary fuel. Although having said that, you guys pay a lot less for regular fuel than we do, so maybe there's not so much advantage in switching.

There's nothing wrong with harvesting trees if the timber isn't wasted - wooden houses are a great example, they last for ages and there's no wastage. As you say, it's the wasteful logging which does the damage. People here are starting to look at wind turbines to power their homes too, which is great.

I suddenly realise how off-topic I am

not off topic to ME! thanks for that clarification, no harm done


our gas prices are right around $3/gal give or take....I wish I could get a commuter car that saves on gas, but there again, it takes $$$. my jeep is paid for. and my credit right now is in the crapper because my ex owes me over $2000 for childcare and Im slowly sinking in the debt heap.

in the winter, where I live you need a 4W drive. I live at about 3000ft and we get hefty amounts of snow, up to my axles and above. its necessary.

I know that there are lots of choices people could be making. but again, it takes money to have principles. poor people dont really have any choices.

that doesnt mean I dont do what I can, but if it comes down to finances, Im not able to match my philosophical bent with my wallet. and Im not alone.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

our gas prices are right around $3/gal give or take....I wish I could get a commuter car that saves on gas, but there again, it takes $$$. my jeep is paid for. and my credit right now is in the crapper because my ex owes me over $2000 for childcare and Im slowly sinking in the debt heap.

in the winter, where I live you need a 4W drive. I live at about 3000ft and we get hefty amounts of snow, up to my axles and above. its necessary.

I know that there are lots of choices people could be making. but again, it takes money to have principles. poor people dont really have any choices.

that doesnt mean I dont do what I can, but if it comes down to finances, Im not able to match my philosophical bent with my wallet. and Im not alone.

I'd say poor people have fewer choices - certainly there are things that restrict you, like your ex, and needing a 4WD for the snow. But there are other things that everyone can do - recycling for example. It's catching on here, and everyone can get involved for free.

I often think that the wealthier you are, the more you contribute to the problem anyway - like making needless car journeys, jetting off abroad for your holidays and wasting food etc because you can afford to buy more than you need. Modern life makes it difficult for less well-off people to be green - years ago you could grow your own (organic) vegetables, but who the hell has time to do that now? Unless you drop out completely it's hard to be completely green. The thing is just never to lose sight of the ideal and do what you can, as you obviously do.

[amber]

Originally Posted by paleshadow

Way to go Amber! That's really great. I've never smoked, but my sister just quit recently so I know how hard it can be. Good for you!

Thank you very much!

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

I disagree - if when push comes to shove you cast aside your standards because of some other influence, then the result becomes your standards. If your beliefs are that fragile, then you can't claim to hold them, can you?

For instance if you moan about air pollution and fossil fuels disappearing, and you drive a four-litre SUV, then your green credentials are just zero.

I tend to agree somewhat - at least logically. At least I definitely feel guilty when I don't adhere to my standards. I think some people could easily have higher standards than they do, as well. I am hella, hella poor - so my standards are simple. (I make about $900 a month, and my rent is $675).
*EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION, THIS IS WHERE I DO TALK ABOUT MY CONSUMER HABITS* I ride my ass to a separate alternate store to get organic produce (the price difference here is negligable), I recycle everything, I am very mindful of the energy my house consumes, and recently, I started using coconut oil to cook things - I don't ever put the excess down the drain, I save it in a jar to be all thrown away at once. (oil is very bad for the water system) I give my little $25 to earthjustice or someone per year. I save my batteries to be taken to the properly dispose of facility (although they are older, I bought rechargables a year ago - so simple,but helpful - see?) I decided to basically stop eating meat, and I basically have - if I do buy meat, I buy free range, and I strive to not buy meat more than once a month. If I buy a hamburger, I feel really guilty - so I've cut that to about once a month as well, and am trying hard to resist that. Are these things earth shattering? No. But they are what I can do with my limited resources, and I know they help.
And I do strive to stick to my standards, because like you said - I feel I've let my own standards down, which are a part of me, if I don't do my best.
There are some choices that people don't have any "clean" options for - like flying - and I understand that. So, since there are so many times we don't have socially responsible choices, it is important (to me, and the earth) to seek out the ways that we do. Just my $.02.
Oh, and I volunteer at Earthjustice! (okay, I had to get work experience hours for my degree, but still! I could've gone somewhere else.... )

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by amber

I tend to agree somewhat - at least logically. At least I definitely feel guilty when I don't adhere to my standards. I think some people could easily have higher standards than they do, as well. I am hella, hella poor - so my standards are simple. (I make about $900 a month, and my rent is $675).
*EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION, THIS IS WHERE I DO TALK ABOUT MY CONSUMER HABITS* I ride my ass to a separate alternate store to get organic produce (the price difference here is negligable), I recycle everything, I am very mindful of the energy my house consumes, and recently, I started using coconut oil to cook things - I don't ever put the excess down the drain, I save it in a jar to be all thrown away at once. (oil is very bad for the water system) I give my little $25 to earthjustice or someone per year. I save my batteries to be taken to the properly dispose of facility, I decided to basically stop eating meat, and I basically have - if I do buy meat, I buy free range, and I strive to not buy meat more than once a month. If I buy a hamburger, I feel really guilty - so I've cut that to about once a month as well, and am trying hard to resist that. Are these things earth shattering? No. But they are what I can do with my limited resources, and I know they help.
And I do strive to stick to my standards, because like you said - I feel I've let my own standards down, which are a part of me, if I don't do my best.
There are some choices that people don't have any "clean" options for - like flying - and I understand that. So, since there are so many times we don't have socially responsible choices, it is important (to me, and the earth) to seek out the ways that we do. Just my .02.

I totally agree. I think when I wrote my first post there I was wearing my no-compromise hat, which I like to wear sometimes. Of course there are restrictions on everyone, as irishgirl pointed out. I guess what I should have said was that if your standards are compromised by outside factors that you have a control over, then your standards are just toilet-bound.

I greatly admire you for what you do given your disposable income - I remember being so poor I couldn't eat properly and I'll never forget it. Mainly thanks to not having a girlfriend any more, and a better job, I'm lucky enough to be doing OK, but it's still ingrained in me not to waste anything. People think I'm weird but I still bitch at them for throwing food away or leaving lights on when they go out