Brokeback Mountain Review and Response

[markolas]

I was holding off on asking this because I was afraid of spoiling the ending, so anyone who hasn't seen it yet probably shouldn't read this post.






In the scene where Ennis calls Jake's wife, and she's telling him about Jake's death, there are flashback-type things of Jake being beaten to death. When I saw it, I was thinking that this was Ennis imagining things, but I talked to a friend who saw it twice...he said the first time, he thought that, too, but the second time he said it was obvious that that was what really happened to Jake, and that his wife was making up a story. Did anyone else get that impression?

[MacMan]

Originally Posted by markolas

I was holding off on asking this because I was afraid of spoiling the ending, so anyone who hasn't seen it yet probably shouldn't read this post.






In the scene where Ennis calls Jake's wife, and she's telling him about Jake's death, there are flashback-type things of Jake being beaten to death. When I saw it, I was thinking that this was Ennis imagining things, but I talked to a friend who saw it twice...he said the first time, he thought that, too, but the second time he said it was obvious that that was what really happened to Jake, and that his wife was making up a story. Did anyone else get that impression?

While she's explaining to Ennis what happened, the flash back scenes were being played. So I took it that she either believed what she was saying, and the real truth of what happened was in the flash backs, and maybe she did or didn't know the real truth... Or she new the truth, but to save face was telling the bull**** story to him like she probably did to many other folks. That's how I read it.. or saw it.

[stargazer99]

Originally Posted by markolas

I was holding off on asking this because I was afraid of spoiling the ending, so anyone who hasn't seen it yet probably shouldn't read this post.

I actually wanted to ask that question as well, but didn't, for the same reason. (Scroll down for my thoughts.)












I actually wondered both what you thought, and what your friend thought. I also wondered if he was having a flashback to his neighbor being beaten and killed when he was a kid? That he was afraid the she was going to tell him that's what happened to Jack? The images were so fast, that I couldn't tell for sure if that was Jack being beaten.

It definitely seemed like the wife was hiding something, though. It seemed so mechanical when she told him what happened, like she had scripted her answer and rehearsed it over and over again until she could recite it by heart. That, along with the harse nail biting, made me think she wasn't telling the truth. I also wonder if she had something to do with his death?

That scene definitely gave me a lot to speculate about.

[strandinthewind]

I thought that flashback was Ennis flashing back to the rancher from his childhood who was beaten to death for being gay. I felt as if Ennis was seeing that because Ennis himself had been a part of that. If I remember correctly, the person being beaten in the scene is having the same things done to him that Ennis said were done to the gay rancher. But, it could be that Ennis knew the real story of what happened to Jack and that flashback was what was running through his mind.

Whatever the real intent of that scene, it was spellbinding to me.

[JazmenFlowers]

what are the crowds like when you guys have seen the movie? I'm anxious to see what they are like here...

[markolas]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I thought that flashback was Ennis flashing back to the rancher from his childhood who was beaten to death for being gay. I felt as if Ennis was seeing that because Ennis himself had been a part of that. If I remember correctly, the person being beaten in the scene is having the same things done to him that Ennis said were done to the gay rancher. But, it could be that Ennis knew the real story of what happened to Jack and that flashback was what was running through his mind.

That's what I thought, too, although I don't think Jake was having the same things done to him as the rancher that Ennis saw. It does make more sense that the wife was the one having the flashbacks. It was all going by so fast that it was hard for me to make heads or tails of it. But you're right about it being spellbinding.

[markolas]

Originally Posted by JazmenFlowers

what are the crowds like when you guys have seen the movie? I'm anxious to see what they are like here...

It was mostly older people when I went to see it. There was also a middle-aged gay male couple, and some lesbians. But mostly old people. Like, really old.

[stargazer99]

Originally Posted by JazmenFlowers

what are the crowds like when you guys have seen the movie? I'm anxious to see what they are like here...

I live in one of the most conservative cities in the U.S. (Seriously. It was actually listed as one of the top 5 most conservative cities in the U.S. in some article I read.) You live in a very conservative city as well, correct?

The theater wasn't filled to capacity, but it was pretty full. All ages were pretty much represented. I saw everyone from a group of teenage girls to at least one or two older couples. There were a lot more women than men. The only men I saw were with wives or girlfriends.

I think a lot of peope were pretty moved by it. I noticed a lot of sniffling by the end of the movie. And the majority of the crowd sat there through the credits, and weren't saying much when they left the theater.

I was pretty pleasantly surprised by the overall response, considering I wanted to slap some people before the movie. One guy in the concession line joked to his wife that he bought two tickets for Brokeback Mountain, snickered, and told her she'd be seeing the movie by herself if she wanted to see it. She started to respond to him with what I believe was going to be a statement about her not being able to sit through it, but she was cutoff by the girl waiting on her. When they were walking away, I heard him say "It would be an agenda Oscar". When I walked into the theater, there was a group of women in front of me, who were talking about how their husbands refused to see it. One was saying she asked her husband why he didn't want to see a "#1 movie", and her husband said didn't want to see "Bareback Mountain." (I take it he's a Michael Savage lemming. )

[dissention]

I was always under the impression that Ennis' fears of being "found out" by other people were playing out when he was being told about Jack's death. He seemed skeptical about the circumstances of Jack's death and imagined that he had been murdered with a tire iron, just like that man from his childhood, as a result of other men finding out Jack was gay. I don't think that's how Jack died. Ennis just doesn't know what he believes about Jack's death. I read the script and that pretty much confirmed what I had thought.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by dissention

I was always under the impression that Ennis' fears of being "found out" by other people were playing out when he was being told about Jack's death. He seemed skeptical about the circumstances of Jack's death and imagined that he had been murdered with a tire iron, just like that man from his childhood, as a result of other men finding out Jack was gay. I don't think that's how Jack died. Ennis just doesn't know what he believes about Jack's death. I read the script and that pretty much confirmed what I had thought.

Ditto this. The scene is an image that is in the mind of Ennis. I am eagerly awaiting the DVD, only because I want to freeze frame this awful scene and see if Jack had a mustache or not. Ultimately, it does not matter what happened to Jack. The point is that Ennis' fear of what he envisioned happened to Jack is what most prevented them from being together.

In the story, when Ennis hears about the other rancher at the Twist house, it is written "So now he knew it had been the tire iron." The movie and the story are certainly two different things, but then again, at the end of the story it is also written, "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."

So, the question is still there, but the answer does not matter.

Let me also say that after I have immersed myself in this story and this movie for the last seven weeks of my life, I have stumbled upon something I had not thought about in a long time.

PART OF ME IS CONSUMED WITH ANGER.

I am so f*cking sick and tired of the fact that so many people have to lie about their feelings. The fact that I have had to wait until I am 40 years old to see a love story on film about two men I can relate to creates a burning rage in me so immense that I hardly know what to do with it. I see people still talking about being gay as something that is somehow evil and wrong and having witnessed the psychic and physical destruction created by those attitudes I feel a simmering, incendiary resentment that could consume everything around me with it's force. It makes me want to break things, crush things, and be violent. It's not the movie. It's forty years of second best treatment, put down jokes, insulting television characters, hateful religions, and accumulated sadness for all the people out there who have suffered needlessly. So far, I have not encountered anything out there in the world along the lines of a jackass in a movie theatre making nasty jokes, and I have not witnessed any outright harrassment of gay people. But, I tell you what, God help the person who does this in front of me. God help them.

[markolas]

Originally Posted by sparky

Ditto this. The scene is an image that is in the mind of Ennis. I am eagerly awaiting the DVD, only because I want to freeze frame this awful scene and see if Jack had a mustache or not. Ultimately, it does not matter what happened to Jack. The point is that Ennis' fear of what he envisioned happened to Jack is what most prevented them from being together.

That was my initial impression, too. I really shouldn't be so quick to second-guess myself.

Let me also say that after I have immersed myself in this story and this movie for the last seven weeks of my life, I have stumbled upon something I had not thought about in a long time.

PART OF ME IS CONSUMED WITH ANGER.

I am so f*cking sick and tired of the fact that so many people have to lie about their feelings. The fact that I have had to wait until I am 40 years old to see a love story on film about two men I can relate to creates a burning rage in me so immense that I hardly know what to do with it. I see people still talking about being gay as something that is somehow evil and wrong and having witnessed the psychic and physical destruction created by those attitudes I feel a simmering, incendiary resentment that could consume everything around me with it's force. It makes me want to break things, crush things, and be violent. It's not the movie. It's forty years of second best treatment, put down jokes, insulting television characters, hateful religions, and accumulated sadness for all the people out there who have suffered needlessly. So far, I have not encountered anything out there in the world along the lines of a jackass in a movie theatre making nasty jokes, and I have not witnessed any outright harrassment of gay people. But, I tell you what, God help the person who does this in front of me. God help them.

I've been feeling this, too, brought out in part by seeing the movie. I've found myself thoroughly unable to watch television anymore because people like me are so rarely represented, and when they are, it's something like Will & Grace, which is so mind-numbingly stupid that words can't even begin to describe it. Say what you will about Queer As Folk, but at least it portrayed gay people as having real feelings, even if it painted a very narrow picture of what we're like.

Eh...I started to post some other stuff here, but it would probably piss off most, if not all, of the heterosexuals on the board, so I'll keep it to myself. Suffice it to say that I find myself with practically no tolerance for the way that gay people are made to feel as if we don't exist.

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by sparky

I have not witnessed any outright harrassment of gay people. But, I tell you what, God help the person who does this in front of me. God help them.

At 40 years of age?All I can say is that you must have lived an incredibly insular life.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sparky

Ditto this. The scene is an image that is in the mind of Ennis. I am eagerly awaiting the DVD, only because I want to freeze frame this awful scene and see if Jack had a mustache or not.

I did with the screener I got and he's got the Pornstache on in all it's glory.

Let me also say that after I have immersed myself in this story and this movie for the last seven weeks of my life, I have stumbled upon something I had not thought about in a long time.

PART OF ME IS CONSUMED WITH ANGER.

I am so f*cking sick and tired of the fact that so many people have to lie about their feelings. The fact that I have had to wait until I am 40 years old to see a love story on film about two men I can relate to creates a burning rage in me so immense that I hardly know what to do with it. I see people still talking about being gay as something that is somehow evil and wrong and having witnessed the psychic and physical destruction created by those attitudes I feel a simmering, incendiary resentment that could consume everything around me with it's force. It makes me want to break things, crush things, and be violent. It's not the movie. It's forty years of second best treatment, put down jokes, insulting television characters, hateful religions, and accumulated sadness for all the people out there who have suffered needlessly. So far, I have not encountered anything out there in the world along the lines of a jackass in a movie theatre making nasty jokes, and I have not witnessed any outright harrassment of gay people. But, I tell you what, God help the person who does this in front of me. God help them.

I wrote out a big, long reply to this and then deleted it. I knew what I wanted to say in my head, but when typed out, it was an embarrassing jumble of utter ****. I have never agonized over a post like that ever before. Sometimes you just can't find the right words and it's such a bitch.

In any event, reading that touched me a bit for a few reasons and I seem incapable of articulating exactly why.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

At 40 years of age?All I can say is that you must have lived an incredibly insular life.

No. I haven't at all. I grew up in a rural environment, and I work in an environment with 90% straight guys. Many of them boneheads on film and TV sets. Not insular at all. As an adult, say from 21 onward, I have not seen anything I needed to do anything about. Call me lucky. In high school, sure. But not since I have been a man.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and am assuming your comment was not meant as some kind of insult. My life has not been led like a veal raised in a box. More of my time out is spent with straight people than gay. But then again, I do live in Los Angeles. In fact, I spent this entire evening in a straight bar. Everyone thought I was straight, I guess. Women tried to hit on me, and the married couple my friend and I were with actually made some good natured brokeback related jokes with a lady who was trying to scam me. Maybe it was the cowboy hat. She asked who was with whom, because she didn't dance with married guys, and the guy said, putting his arm around me, "I am with him, so we can both dance with you." He was with his wife and I was with my good friend who is a girl.

She responded with "Oh, you're like those guys in the cowboy movie." We all laughed, and he hugged me and said "Yup, this is my guy." Not a bad word mentioned, not a negative vibe felt. We all laughed and kept drinking and telling stories. The married couple we were with never asked if I was gay or straight, and it wasn't an issue. So, no, I do not live an insular life at all. We were at an Irish straight rock and roll bar in Van Nuys. Dave and I had our arms around each other frequently. We punched each other and wrestled around. I just met him and his wife tonight. Not a peep. From anyone.

[BombaySapphire3]

I did not mean the comment as an insult .I was genuinely surprised that a gay man around my age would not have seen any overtly homophobic or anti -gay behavior .I had left California for several years fairly recently and lived in Kansas City where I felt an atmosphere of homophobia and racism until I moved back here 3 years ago.Once while in a midtown restaurant often frequented by gays a young gay guy walked from the restroom to his table and I overheard another young white male at another table say to his friends " I hate fags let's go kill him ' and then he laughed.This is just an extreme example of homophobic behavior I witnessed there, much of it perpetrated by so called "Christians'.I also spent much of my youth and young adulthood living in conservative San Diego and walking along University ave .there where several gay clubs were, anti gay slurs were routinely yelled at pedestrians .I have friends who were recenty gay bashed even in San Francisco.I do understand that everyone's frame of reference is different and I share your anger and frustration over homophobia and the hyprocrisy of the Christian right.I myself have no intention of remaining silent the next time I witness any blatant anti-gay behavior or discrimnation .I have more than had my fill.