oh shut up sharon...

[David]

Originally Posted by The Tower

The concept that Stevie had Tom there to help her leads me to believe that she took the time to submit semi-finished demos (such as the Cleaning Lady demo), whereas the Christine comment about rubbish leads me to believe that Stevie may have submitted extremely subpar metronome/drum machine, clunky piano playing, poorly sung material. They conflict. Or perhaps, she submitted both types of demos.

Ah, I see what you're saying. Hmm...I don't know. From the psychological point of view, it's easier to believe that Stevie did not submit all the looser stuff to Fleetwood Mac because she would have been self-conscious about it & leery of being insulted.

Yes, my band wrote music on this level sometimes. Bands like REM and U2 write with the style of building a song from the ground up and seeing where it ends up. However, because of Stevie's relationship with both Christine and Lindsey, I believe that she wrote the basic concepts, melodies and progressions on her own. And with that relationship from that time period in mind, I find it interesting that she might have submitted subpar demos to them all the while knowing that they might trash her for her poor musicianship and/or spacey lyrics and ideas.

Yes I'll have to agree with this possibility. I think it highly likely that the material she brought in for Fleetwood was as top-notch as she could make it at the time--except for anything she happened to write *in* the studio.

[SuzeQuze]

From '84 to '87 she may have slapped them some sloppy demos. But I think she is too concerned about what FM would think of her music to do this while in her right mind. I think the stuff we are hearing was never meant to be public. Its just rough stuff to play around with, like the journal analogy used earlier.

[SapphireSister]

No wonder she doesn't want this sh*t circulating, people are going to trash her (which has been done here by her die hard fans). It's like an artist submitting a sketch for a drawing that may be terrible until you've seen the finished product. I'm all for demos but I can definitely see why she would not want this stuff to get out. So much of it is what Johnny Stew said - just ideas and concepts in her head and her f*ucking around with them. If people judge her musicianship based on this it's really an unfair assessment.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by David

By hiring a band (or by recruiting musician friends).

She didn't record those in their entirety by herself.

Nor was that the first time the band had ever heard those songs. Perhaps it might be the first time John heard them and maybe even Mick but the producer? He probably heard them in earlier versions.

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by SapphireSister

No wonder she doesn't want this sh*t circulating, people are going to trash her (which has been done here by her die hard fans). It's like an artist submitting a sketch for a drawing that may be terrible until you've seen the finished product. I'm all for demos but I can definitely see why she would not want this stuff to get out. So much of it is what Johnny Stew said - just ideas and concepts in her head and her f*ucking around with them. If people judge her musicianship based on this it's really an unfair assessment.

But constructive criticizm is an important part of every writers process. As a writer she should be used to people telling her they don't like something and not take it as personally as some of her fans do. Otherwise demos like "Old Fashioned" might have been released. I don't think these raw demos can be judged on production or vocal performance. Basically they can and should be judged on the lyrics and melody. Without having those two things as a strong starting off point, why bother taking a song any further?

[flyfirefly]

I've always wondered about Stevie's participation as well. I actually submitted a question somewhere along these lines to the Nicks Fix a month or so ago.

I remember her saying the 'skeleton' thing as well, though she is credited as the sole songwriter for most of her songs despite their clearly being a combination of some other things. I've always wondered how much (especially in the BuckinghamNicks era) Stevie and Lindsey collaborated--being as it seems that Stevie lacks that 'musician' element that really helps to define some of her songs (ie the Rhiannon riff, the Landslide guitar arrangement)--where does production begin and when would it affect who gets credit (& subsequent royalties) from songwriting?

[SapphireSister]

Dang that was painful. The best part was when she was talking, not singing.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by flyfirefly

I've always wondered how much (especially in the BuckinghamNicks era) Stevie and Lindsey collaborated--being as it seems that Stevie lacks that 'musician' element that really helps to define some of her songs (ie the Rhiannon riff, the Landslide guitar arrangement)--where does production begin and when would it affect who gets credit (& subsequent royalties) from songwriting?

I just want to point out that the "Rhiannon" riff does seem to be Stevie's own invention... it's exactly what she plays in all of the various piano demos floating around out there... just translated by Lindsey to a guitar part instead.
Same thing with his guitar riff from "Sisters Of The Moon"... it's the hook from Stevie's own piano demo.

Lindsey essentially fleshes out Stevie's songs, building on the original melody, arranging them, editing them, and so forth. It's really what he does/did for Christine's songs, too.

[strandinthewind]

^^^

and in many ways, they all helped LB in the production of many of his songs as well mand no matter how much LB tinkered with them on his own. No one plays piano quite like CM - same for John and Mick on their instruments. Similarly, no one can harmonize or tuen a phrase quite like La Nicks. A goiod example is the lyric she gave CM for Oh Daddy ("And I can't walk away from you, baby - If I tried" wasn't that it? ) and she got no writing credit on that song -- So, I think from the beginning, they all realized each had their own charm.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

^^^

A goiod example is the lyric she gave CM for Oh Daddy ("And I can't walk away from you, baby - If I tried" wasn't that it? )

Correct Superman, that would be the line!

Someone has been listening to their Rumours DVD audio...

[David]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I just want to point out that the "Rhiannon" riff does seem to be Stevie's own invention... it's exactly what she plays in all of the various piano demos floating around out there... just translated by Lindsey to a guitar part instead.

He actually corrects her "mistake." She plays thirds on the root minor, which creates an F/A chord (the "mistake"). He turned that into a pure A minor by dropping the F tone to an E tone. He also--even more important--transformed her tick-tock rhythm into a properly syncopated riff that adds mystery & greatness. (Stevie's always thinking on the downbeat of quarter notes whereas Lindsey is thinking on the alternating downbeat & upbeat of eighth notes.)

Same thing with his guitar riff from "Sisters Of The Moon"... it's the hook from Stevie's own piano demo.

That I don't hear. You mean the F in 1st inversion to the A minor in root position?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by David

He actually corrects her "mistake." She plays thirds on the root minor, which creates an F/A chord (the "mistake"). He turned that into a pure A minor by dropping the F tone to an E tone. He also--even more important--transformed her tick-tock rhythm into a properly syncopated riff that adds mystery & greatness. (Stevie's always thinking on the downbeat of quarter notes whereas Lindsey is thinking on the alternating downbeat & upbeat of eighth notes.)

As always, I bow down to the master on these matters. The two riffs have the same overall sound to my untrained ears (not exactly the same, of course... I shouldn't have worded it as such... since Stevie & Lindsey have two completely different playing styles).

Originally Posted by David

That I don't hear. You mean the F in 1st inversion to the A minor in root position?

I'm a dunce when it comes to which chord or note is which. But I definitely hear that "bum-bah... bum bah-dah... bah-bum-bum-bum, bah-dah" riff that Lindsey plays, in Stevie's piano demo.