Governor denies clemency for ex-gang leader - Page 8

DavidMn · #**106** 12-13-2005, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Wealth is the one that springs most immediately to my mind. It's also the case that wealthier people tend to be acquitted or receive much lighter sentences than poorer people. And of course, in the US, a higher proportion of wealthy people are white, and a higher proportion of poor people are black. So the question is, are black people receiving tougher sentences because they're black, or because they're poor?

I do agrewe with you in the sense I FIRMLY beiieve it should be applied fairly no matter how much money one has or the color of their skin.

ragandbone · #**107** 12-13-2005, 02:53 PM

I had a teacher in 8th grade who owned a taped copy of a first hand account of an execution, and he played it for our class. I am not sure if I had an opinion on the death penalty before I heard that recording, but I have been very sure ever since: we do not have the right to murder in the name of justice, doing so does not bring about justice.

Every execution that California has carried out, I have found myself up at 12, thinking about it. I am often, otherwise proud to be from California but on these days, I am ashamed.

Here are pages of audio and transcripts on Sound Portraits (they make great audio documentaries):
Sound Portraits: execution tapes
witness_to_an_execution/

Here is a site focusing on death penalty in Missouri, with accounts and audio.
MissouriNet

Kay Fulton's audio diary about the execution of McVeigh, she was witness as a relative of one of the victims of the Oklahoma bombings, and she does report a feeling of relief at the execution, which I do not believe is a case for continuing State executions.
http://americanradioworks.publicradi...execution.html

Gailh · #**108** 12-13-2005, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Wealth is the one that springs most immediately to my mind. It's also the case that wealthier people tend to be acquitted or receive much lighter sentences than poorer people. And of course, in the US, a higher proportion of wealthy people are white, and a higher proportion of poor people are black. So the question is, are black people receiving tougher sentences because they're black, or because they're poor?

So similar to hurricane Katrina then. Blacks suffered disproportionately because they tend to be poorer not because they're black?

Gail

Jyqm · #**109** 12-13-2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

And I RESENT someone trying to impose THEIR moral code on me telling me what I should want done to someone that DIRECTLY involves me, and has nothing whatsoever to do with them.

Should formal laws be abandoned entirely then? If a crime involves only the perpetrator and the victim and has nothing whatsoever do with anybody else (least of all a judge or jury, who are all specifically chosen because they have nothing to do with the crime in question), should we simply dismantle the court system entirely and leave everyone to suss out their own version of vigilantism, lest anyone try to impose their moral code on something that doesn't involve them?

Jyqm · #**110** 12-13-2005, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gailh

So similar to hurricane Katrina then. Blacks suffered disproportionately because they tend to be poorer not because they're black?

Gail

Yep! I actually almost included that example in my post. Of course, the truth likely lies in the grey area in between.

DavidMn · #**111** 12-13-2005, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Should formal laws be abandoned entirely then? If a crime involves only the perpetrator and the victim and has nothing whatsoever do with anybody else (least of all a judge or jury, who are all specifically chosen because they have nothing to do with the crime in question), should we simply dismantle the court system entirely and leave everyone to suss out their own version of vigilantism, lest anyone try to impose their moral code on something that doesn't involve them?

NO, And if the hypothetical killer of my parents were not sentenced to death and instead life in prison, I would abide by that decision.

ragandbone · #**112** 12-13-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMn

God forbid someone brutally kills my mother and father. I would want them dead. And I RESENT someone trying to impose THEIR moral code on me telling me what I should want done to someone that DIRECTLY involves me, and has nothing whatsoever to do with them. I do respect someone that opposes the death penalty, I just dont agree.

You might "want them dead" and that desire would be your right, in your grief, and I believe it would be my responsibility to help keep you from committing such an act, by supporting public funding of victims' grief counseling, And, I would feel responsible to keep convicted murderers in prison, even for life, so they would not commit murder again. I don't think we should all have to have to be responsible for taking someone's life in order to appease the victims.

tommer · #**113** 12-13-2005, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMn

I FIRMLY beiieve it should be applied fairly

david, can't you see that saying this is absurd? "death" is unfair. simple. fairness is not the feeling or state to describe the ending of human lives. it is good that there are people, and it is not good and not fair that they die. people are better off being alive, that is their fair state of being.

DavidMn · #**114** 12-13-2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ragandbone

You might "want them dead" and that desire would be your right, in your grief, and I beleive it would be my repsonsibility to help keep you from committing such an act, by supporting public funding of victims' grief counseling, And, I I would feel responsible to keep convicted murderers in prison, even for life, so they would not commit murder again. I don't think we should all have to have to be responsible for taking someone's life in order to appease the victims.

You know, that was a really nice way to express your opinion. I'd listen for sure. I always try to keep an open mind, but on this subject its hard for me.

DavidMn · #**115** 12-13-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommer

david, can't you see that saying this is absurd? "death" is unfair. simple. fairness is not the feeling or state to describe the ending of human lives. it is good that there are people, and it is not good and not fair that they die. people are better off being alive, that is their fair state of being.

Fair enough, but what do you say about the fact that a killer took the life of another? That isnt fair either is it?

The Tower · #**116** 12-13-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMn

God forbid someone brutally kills my mother and father. I would want them dead.

What if the killer was your mother or father and the government imposed the death penalty and killed them? Would you be okay with that?

The Tower · #**117** 12-13-2005, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMn

Fair enough, but what do you say about the fact that a killer took the life of another? That isnt fair either is it?

Very few things in life are fair. But that doesn't mean that we have to lower our standards because of it.

DavidMn · #**118** 12-13-2005, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tower

What if the killer was your mother or father and the government imposed the death penalty and killed them? Would you be okay with that?

If they brutally murdered someone? It would be hard, but I'd say yes. I dont know, I understand where you're coming from, but I just keep going back to the fact that whoever brutally kills someone is getting off if they dont have the same thing happen to them.

ragandbone · #**119** 12-13-2005, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMn

You know, that was a really nice way to express your opinion. I'd listen for sure. I always try to keep an open mind, but on this subject its hard for me.

I *is* a hard subject for everyone, but important to discuss, I think.

[begin self-centered comment in middle of important discussion:cripes, look at all of my typos in the post of mine you quoted! Does anyone else transpose all of their letters when typing fast? It is like/kile a typing/pyting dyselxia, seldexia, Dyslexia!/]

DavidMn · #**120** 12-13-2005, 03:13 PM

BUt then again, let me add this to my thoughts. Let's say I happen to come home and find my parents killed and the killer is still in the house, and a situation comes up where I personally have a chance to inflict retribution, I'd have a hard time doing it. I know that sounds totally hypocritical given what I've saud before here, but I'm just trying to feel my way through this whole thought process