Governor denies clemency for ex-gang leader

[David]

Originally Posted by The Tower

The death penalty is never just.

I wish people wouldn't murder other people.

I also don't like the idea of the death penalty, which is state-sanctioned & state-carried-out killing. I believe that's an abuse of power on the part of the state. The state should be kept on a much shorter leash. With the state going around snuffing out its own citizens, you feel as if you were in nazi Germany or stalinist Russia.

Where do some people get the idea that they have this sort of power over other people?

[David]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

There needs to be a compelling public benefit for me to support the death penalty, and there isn't.

Like if the meat were used to feed people or something.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by TwistedGypsy

He really suffered didn't he?

You're right. They should have tortured him to death. But, on second thought, instead of the goal being to kill him, we should set up torture camps and just torture people for their crimes. That's a civilized society in action. Become the criminal. Lower yourself to their level. Commit the atrocities they commit. All in the name of revenge. It's a great way to live.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by Tower

Why would they? The execution of the murderer doesn’t bring anyone back to life. It doesn’t erase the memory of the victim. It doesn’t change history.

Exactly. I was just arguing against the point many people make for the death penalty that it somehow helps the victims' families. Although I think you know that and are continuing the argument against that assertion.

[David]

Originally Posted by The Tower

You're right. They should have tortured him to death. But, on second thought, instead of the goal being to kill him, we should set up torture camps and just torture people for their crimes. That's a civilized society in action. Become the criminal. Lower yourself to their level. Commit the atrocities they commit. All in the name of revenge. It's a great way to live.

Yeats foresaw such a civilization in "The Second Coming":

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Also, the Stevie reference of course is Taylor Caldwell's "Ceremony of the Innocent," Stevie's favorite novel.

[ragandbone]

Originally Posted by David

Like if the meat were used to feed people or something.

Ah, a new "Modest Proposal"

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

They're already doing that.

Yes, most people may not be aware, but the prison system is largely a for profit industry. I don't know anything further than that because I think I would vomit if I knew the facts although at some point I would like to know more.

[David]

Originally Posted by ragandbone

Ah, a new "Modest Proposal"

Nature, red in tooth & claw .... &c.

Ew.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

My point, that you fail to get in the analogy, IS, how many people must be killed, before the death penalty is considered just?

Invalid question. It's not just, period.

[Gailh]

Here in Britain we don't have the death penalty (although there are plenty who would happily bring it back).

Personally I am against it. I believe that criminals should be punished for their crimes and taking away their liberty is a fitting punishment and also protects the rest of us from them.

In the seventies and eighties we had several people convicted of IRA terrorist offences who were sentenced to life. Subsequently it was proved that they were innocent. If we had had the death penalty they would have been killed.

I don't know all the ins and outs of this case but it has been reported on widely in the UK. I heard that in the US if you are black and kill a white person you are more likely to be sentenced to death than if you are white and kill a black person. Is that really true?

I don't know how I would feel it had been a realtive of mine murdered. But I do know that killing the muderer would not bring them back.

Gail

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by TwistedGypsy

It just seems to me that people are forgeting the victims here.

How so? Nobody is saying that these criminals are good people, or that they should simply be set free without any sort of punishment.

I'm for the victim and I don't see Williams as a victim.

I'm for justice, and philosophical consistency.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Gailh

I heard that in the US if you are black and kill a white person you are more likely to be sentenced to death than if you are white and kill a black person. Is that really true?

Statistics-wise, I do believe it is, although I would imagine there are many more factors at work in those figures.

[Gailh]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Statistics-wise, I do believe it is, although I would imagine there are many more factors at work in those figures.

Such as?

Genuine question.

Gail

[DavidMn]

I'm sorry, but I believe that justice was served in this case. This "person" brutally killed 5? people, and those were 5 people that HE took away their right to live and pursue happiness. God forbid someone brutally kills my mother and father. I would want them dead. And I RESENT someone trying to impose THEIR moral code on me telling me what I should want done to someone that DIRECTLY involves me, and has nothing whatsoever to do with them. I do respect someone that opposes the death penalty, I just dont agree.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Gailh

Such as?

Wealth is the one that springs most immediately to my mind. It's also the case that wealthier people tend to be acquitted or receive much lighter sentences than poorer people. And of course, in the US, a higher proportion of wealthy people are white, and a higher proportion of poor people are black. So the question is, are black people receiving tougher sentences because they're black, or because they're poor?