Governor denies clemency for ex-gang leader

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

So under your logic, had Hitler not committed suicide, he too, should have been given life in prison, right?

Why don't you use a more fitting analogy? Tookie as Hitler? Hmmm...I don't think that's QUITE accurate but then again you were only trying to get a reactionary rise out of people I guess I shouldn't expect anything less.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by snowman

We put more people to death than any country in the world.

Um... actually China puts more people to death than we do. If you're going to make this sort of claim, you need to do your research.

Some quotes from the Amnesty International website (http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/worldwide.html)

The U.S. has executed over 800 people since 1976, and as of December 2002.

Between April and July 2001, at least 1,781 people were executed in a "strike hard" anti-crime campaign carried out by the Chinese government.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by Moony

Me, too, Richard.

Actually, I think the solution lies in nurturing our youth and giving them access to quality education, jobs, and opportunities.

Then again, I'm probably being naive.

No, this is absolutely true. Because I think once they turn to violence it may not be possible to rehabilitate them. I think life in prison without parole is a fair sentence for first degree murder.

I'm also against the death penalty. For those who are for it, consider reading Dead Man Walking to at least see the other point of view. Killing these people costs more money than keeping them in jail for life so from a practical standpoint keeping them in jail is the way to go. Also, victim's families almost always report they don't feel any better after the convicted is put to death. Plus, would you be able to pull that switch? I don't think we should be putting people in the position to have to do that. It is barbaric to kill people as punishment. We are better than that.

No one in power wants to deal with the inner city, especially not the current administration. I'm not sure they see gang members as human beings at all. I would like to see that tide turned and for people in power to provide more resources to schools in poor neighborhoods and other social programs like fair priced housing, etc.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

No, this is absolutely true. Because I think once they turn to violence it may not be possible to rehabilitate them. I think life in prison without parole is a fair sentence for first degree murder.

I'm also against the death penalty. For those who are for it, consider reading Dead Man Walking to at least see the other point of view. Killing these people costs more money than keeping them in jail for life so from a practical standpoint keeping them in jail is the way to go. Also, victim's families almost always report they don't feel any better after the convicted is put to death. Plus, would you be able to pull that switch? I don't think we should be putting people in the position to have to do that. It is barbaric to kill people as punishment. We are better than that.

No one in power wants to deal with the inner city, especially not the current administration. I'm not sure they see gang members as human beings at all. I would like to see that tide turned and for people in power to provide more resources to schools in poor neighborhoods and other social programs like fair priced housing, etc.

Exactly, but having to deal with these issues is too difficult, time consuming and cumbersome so let's just kill them off. It's easier and less messy that way .

[sasja]

Twentyfive nations around the world who still condone execution and here are the top twelve with executions per capita:

The twelve countries with the most executions in 2004:
Country Executions Executions per 100 million residents
1 Kuwait 9+ 400
2 China 3,400+ 260
3 Iran 159+ 230
4 Singapore 6+ 140
5 Saudi Arabia 33+ 130
6 Vietnam 64+ 77
7 Belarus 5+ 48
8 Yemen 6+ 30
9 United States 59 20
10 Pakistan 15+ 9
11 Egypt 6+ 8
12 Bangladesh 7+ 5

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment

Sasja

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Richard B

I had a afterthought. Would anyone like to see Osama bin Laden killed or dead?

I was wondering who would be the first to say that, too.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

Counteract the voices of stupidity???...hmmm...

Well if me and homie are considered the "voices of stupidity" then we sure are in the minority...I think there should be more of us to counter the "reason"...there is just way to much of that damn "reason" going on around here.

(and at least have the guts to name who you are talking about...)

No, by all means, keep squawking. I love reading these Christian values of yours.

[TwistedGypsy]

I'm just posting my opinion and am not looking to argue with anyone. My hormones are too bad to start arguing.

I'm for the death penalty. Eye for an eye. A few things bother me about this "Tookie" Williams. If he was so rehibilated then why not drop the "Tookie", his gang nick name. You'd think he'd won't to leave that behind him. And if he was so "right" with God, he wouldn't be begging for his life. He would accept the decision and should be happy that he want have to "suffer" on this Earth. Instead he could go to the Kingdom of Heaven and be with his Lord.
Also why does he have a PR person? It's sickening to see these cold blooded murderers being able to write and publish books and make money off their former crimes. They do not deserve that. I'm sorry if I was in Albert Owens' step-mothers shoes, I would want to give him the shot myself. Or what about the Asian family, the mother, father and daughter brutually gun downed for $120? Where is their justice? Oh, lets not forget the hundreds of others innocent people killed by the Crips, he helped form. I feel no sympathy for this man. Scratch that he is not even a man to me. He's nothing to me.
And I for one would like my family to keep their hard earned money instead of it going to keep these animals alive.
Brit

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

The U.S. has executed over 800 people since 1976, and as of December 2002.

And of course, lucky #1000 was executed just a week or so ago, I believe.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by TwistedGypsy

I'm just posting my opinion and am not looking to argue with anyone. My hormones are too bad to start arguing.

I'm for the death penalty. Eye for an eye.

Must make for an exciting existence, at any rate.

As a policy, it'd be a really great way to eliminate prisons entirely! Except for people who are found guilty of abduction, I suppose.

And instead of spending money to imprison thieves, we can actually turn a profit by taking their money!

I wonder who would sign up for the job of beating up people found guilty of assault, or ass-f***ing convicted rapists. I just hope those guys aren't too bitter about their punishments when they get set free the next day...

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

What if it was your Mother that he murdered? Would you feel any different? I empathize with the victim's families.

Actually, Matthew Shepard’s parents should be the role model on this one. Their child was brutally beaten and left to die. The Shepards opted to settle the case against Aaron McKinney with the penalty of life in prison rather the subject him to the possibility of a death sentence from a jury trial.

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

It's great that the man turned his life around and worked to make things better, but that doesn't change the fact that four people are dead because of him. No amount of good deeds could ever atone for that.

And having the government kill him for his deeds solves nothing.

Originally Posted by Richard B

Don't forget he was also responsible for co-founding the Crips gangs. They have gone on because of Tookie.

That is an untrue myth. The Crips were founded in the late 60’s. Williams joined in 1971. While Williams liked to claim and brag that he was a co-founder of the gang, it was not true.

I go back and forth on the death penalty. Ultimately it is wrong.

Of course it is.

Are we, as human beings, sophisticated enough to actually understand and correct these kind of behavioral problems? Do we understand the brain well enough to actually be able to do change or hinder murderers and other violent criminals? No. At least not now or in the near future.

And killing people is the solution to this dilemma?

So you want to spend money on keeping this murderer locked up for the rest of his life, in a decent facility and fed three times a day?

I’d rather have my tax dollars imprison criminals than have them contribute to the killing of one innocent person. No one is omniscient. I certainly don’t trust the justice system to be absolutely certain of everyone’s guilt. While prison sentences can be ended, death cannot.

Frankly, Tookie is afraid to die. If I were in his shoes, I'd rather die than waste away my life in a prison cell. And you know what...anyone can write a book.

And your point is?

I also was unfortunate enough to see the crime scene photographs from his truly brutal killings. Not pleasant.

Unfortunately, a large portion of life is not pleasant. Nothing justifies killing.

Like the governor, Tookie refuses to take responsibility for what he did. He's a loser and now for the families of the victims, they will have justice.

Justice or revenge? Killing him changes nothing. The victims are still dead, they will not come back, the memory of them dying will not be erased. The only thing the execution did was show the weakness of American society.

Originally Posted by Richard B

I had a afterthought. Would anyone like to see Osama bin Laden killed or dead?

I don’t want to see anyone killed.

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

Well if me and homie are considered the "voices of stupidity" then we sure are in the minority.

Unfortunately, the voices of stupidity are in the majority.

Originally Posted by Jyqm

And when we're victimized, we want to lash out and get revenge. That's just a natural human emotional response. And that's why we have laws in the first place, right? Because if we all simply acted on our anger and fear, society would fall apart.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

Also, victim's families almost always report they don't feel any better after the convicted is put to death.

Why would they? The execution of the murderer doesn’t bring anyone back to life. It doesn’t erase the memory of the victim. It doesn’t change history.

Originally Posted by TwistedGypsy

I'm for the death penalty. Eye for an eye.

Pray to whatever gods you may worship if you ever get caught on the wrong side of the fence.

Originally Posted by TwistedGypsy

I'm sorry if I was in Albert Owens' step-mothers shoes, I would want to give him the shot myself.

Classy.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

What a DREAM world.

You oughta know sweetheart.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by Richard B

I had a afterthought. Would anyone like to see Osama bin Laden killed or dead?

I have seen no proof from our government that bin Laden is guilty of anything. What I do know is that we aided and abetted him when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan.

[TwistedGypsy]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Pray to whatever gods you may worship if you ever get caught on the wrong side of the fence.

Classy.

I don't know if you know, but I'm 6 months pregnant with my first child. I would do anything to keep him safe. And the thought of something ever happening to him tears me apart. I pray that I'm never in that position one day, but God knows what I'd do for the justice of my child.
Brit

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by TwistedGypsy

I don't know if you know, but I'm 6 months pregnant with my first child. I would do anything to keep him safe. And the thought of something ever happening to him tears me apart. I pray that I'm never in that position one day, but God knows what I'd do for the justice of my child.
Brit

Well, not referring to revenge as justice is a start.