Governor denies clemency for ex-gang leader

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

more taxes

It's coming out of your f*ckin check buddy...not mine!

[Moony]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

It's coming out of your f*ckin check buddy...not mine!

You're a f*cking moron!

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

It's coming out of your f*ckin check buddy...not mine!

Perhaps I was being too generous when I equated talking to a giraffe with talking to a Republican? Maybe a DoDo bird is more like it. on edit if it's a gay Republican make that a deaf DoDo bird.

[Moony]

Originally Posted by BombaySapphire3

on edit if it's a gay Republican make that a deaf DoDo bird.

...with no fashion sense and a bad comb over, to boot!

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by Moony

...with no fashion sense and a bad comb over, to boot!

I was wondering about what happened to his vow not to discuss politics anymore.I guess even the thought of more taxes was too much for him .

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by Moony

You're a f*cking moron!

Well my statement was a joke...

hmmm...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by Moony

...with no fashion sense!

OMG! You really don't know this queer...

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Lux

I certainly hope not also but god forbid, then let's make sure that another mother, another set of children etc have to go through the loss also! Just recently an Australian man was executed in Singapore and just watching footage of his mother before and then after her final goodbye....well there's no point imagining because it's impossible from my position but why does she and his whole family have to suffer? The government is doing to the families of these people exactly what was done to the family of their victims, the crime that caused such grief and outrage is repeated with another set of victims. I fail to see how one can claim such outrage at a crime while approving a death themselves and wanting this same grief to be passed on to another set of people.

Rape is such a horrible crime and without a doubt worthy of punishment but how could I say this if I then wanted those who have been convicted of it to be subjected to it? We do not rape the rapist, that is a hideous act committed in non-civilised, disorderly society. The law is supposed to bring order to our society, not commit in return the same acts. What is the point of it at all then? May aswell put society in charge if the law is not above them. It is as though a child has hit someone in class and been reprimanded by the teacher in the form of a hit in the face. This doesn't make sense and clearly the teacher has removed themselves from the position suitable for reprimanding the child. The teacher, being the person elected in charge of the class does not stoop the level of the child's behaviour, they bring punishment via means appropriate to their position. The only thing they'd have possibly done would be to teach the other children that it's alright to hit. There is such an irony to a situation of chaos needing control and a government put in position to bring this control via the means of the same act which put it in the original state of chaos.

Very well said, Lux. I haven't read through this whole thread yet, but now I'm not sure I really have to. Is there anything really to add besides this? It's incredible that so many Americans will decry both murder and tooth-for-a-tooth vengeance, but the blinders go up immediately when the topic turns to capital punishment. There's always a "but."

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

What if it was your Mother that he murdered? Would you feel any different? I empathize with the victim's families.

Since when is the American justice system based on how the victims of a crime feel about it? I'm pretty sure the system is based on laws, not emotions.

So under your logic, had Hitler not committed suicide, he too, should have been given life in prison, right?

That would indeed be the logic.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

I'm willing to be called barbaric! KILL THEM ALL!

You been hittin' the sex on the beach again, Kurtz?

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Richard B

I had a afterthought. Would anyone like to see Osama bin Laden killed or dead?

If he's killed in the midst of a military action/firefight, well, so it goes with military actions/firefights. If, however, he is captured so that he can be put on trial and "brought to justice," then no, I don't think any government has a right to kill him at that point.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by Richard B

I had a afterthought. Would anyone like to see Osama bin Laden killed or dead?

Tim McVeigh received the death penalty, and in my opinion it did not really solve much (Though McVeigh refused to appeal his sentence, And took to the grave any truth of what actually happened here in OKC.)

As for OBL, Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham will MARRY before he is ever captured

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Moony

Therein lies the rub. I am very opposed to the death penalty, and yet, if someone killed one of my loved ones, I think I would screaming for their blood. I shudder to think how I would react in such a situation.

A big contradiction, I know, but...I still believe that as a society, we are above the death penalty.

I don't even think that's a contradiction, Moony. Of course the murder of a loved one is an absolutely emotionally devastating event, as is being the victim of any crime, to some extent. And when we're victimized, we want to lash out and get revenge. That's just a natural human emotional response.

And that's why we have laws in the first place, right? Because if we all simply acted on our anger and fear, society would fall apart.

[snowman]

Originally Posted by sasja

Having worked in Juvenile Forensics, yes, there ARE better ideas AND they are worked on daily and nightly by very overworked, underpaid, highly caring and dedicated social workers and therapists and psychiatrists, in programs that constantly get fundings cut or yanked.

Early intervention and treatment and teaching kids better skill-sets help tremendously. I have worked with a group of juvenile sex-offenders of which, so far and 6 years later, 85 % managed to NOT repeat-offend .
However, many kids do NOT get the compassion, care, treatment and intervention it would take to allow them to be productive and healthy members of our group (society). The prisons are overflowing with them at later ages

I personally think that, as a society, it is the duty of everyone belonging to the societal group to keep the group healthy and functioning and safe.
If that means dedicating money and resources to understand, treat and diminish the deviate element, that is what needs to be done.

Just "locking-up after violent acts have been committed and laws have been broken" is obviously NOT key to solving the issue, nor is: "sitting around and waiting till a murderer is grown and allowed to act out, then realizing this and killing him/her in turn" , for fundamentally it changes NOTHING.

It's just a band-aid for the symptom, and a lowering ourselves to the standard we are wishing to weed out.

The penal system as it stands needs complete revision. That is another very unpopular stance in this society where asking for group-responsibility and giving up something of yourself (oh no! taxes!) to benefit the group setting, are considered almost bigger crimes than committing murder.

The idea is this:

Start in schools (skill teaching classes, anger management, tolerance, multicultural diversity understanding classes) and start with parent education, which should be as standardly prescribed and mandated by pediatricians as your vaccines. Oh boy, that 'll cost a lot of money! Yup. Higher taxes and MUCH more responsibly divvying up of those taxes will be needed. Maybe even, GASP! volunteers!

Then, indentifying risk-children much more efficiently, follow their development and offer them and their families additional support. Counselling, vocational training, outward-bound programs for inner-city kids, all are already proving to have a huge positive impact and making a big difference.

As a group, taking responsibility and making all efforts to see that the violent, the deviate, gets weeded out from the early start, is my idea.

And then, if we still let people fall through the cracks, we should not be allowed to shrug our shoulders and just "kill them" so we don't have to see them around any longer and no longer be reminded of how we failed and allowed murderers and sexoffenders and kidnappers and all those other horrible criminals to grow and fester in our group without doing anything about it.

I am sorry, but it just gets my goat when people who want the rights and priviledges of belonging to a group, are quick to shir the responsibility for keeping it healthy.

There are some people, and granted the numbers are rapidly dwindling due to lack of support and due to burn-out therefor, who are working their butts off to try and prevent murderers ffrom budding out and coming to full bloom.

I burned-out there for a while and am trying to re-charge so I can go back into the trenches.

And I salute all my former colleagues and still friends who are continuing to fight the good fight. One day hopefully the death penalty debate will be a moot point... and prisons rehab centers instead..

Sasja

I'm no expert here. But this country has more prisons and inmates than any country in the world. We put more people to death than any country in the world. So, something's not working. In it's essence the above post, though idealistic and difficult for our society to wrap it's arms around, is the the right direction. Our societal problems need to be identified and remedied at the source- not 15-20 years down the road.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by dissention

The "payment"? What "payment" is that? How lovely that we're calling actual human life "payment."

It sends shivers down my spine to think that we're incapable of doing what Tookie Williams himself was incapable of doing: showing mercy. It's the ultimate hypocrisy.

Agreed. I love how cavalier some people are when it comes to the death penalty...like human life is that easily weighed. "Off with his head!" It's really easy to make such dismissive statements without having to really deal with the issues. It's traumatic and sad for all parties involved .