Governor denies clemency for ex-gang leader

[Moony]

Originally Posted by Lux

He's on a high horse? Yes it appears you have confused modern, western ethics for some idiot on a high horse. Step outside your little shelter there and realise that this is not some crazy hippie idea, infact the idea that we can teach people lessons via murder is so barbaric and to believe in this is a sign of stupidity. It is seriously beyond comprehension to me in a modern, western society. Utterly disgraceful and don't take the easy way out and claim I care for this man more than his victims, just a warning incase anyone chooses to because you may aswell write "I'm a close-minded person of low intelligence" in your signature then.

Oh, how I love thee.

I'm glad to see there are voices of reason (Dissention, sasja, and others) to counteract the voices of stupidity (we all know who they are)

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Moony

I'm glad to see there are voices of reason (Dissention, sasja, and others) to counteract the voices of stupidity (we all know who they are)

Got a better idea then?

[Moony]

Originally Posted by Richard B

Got a better idea then?

That wasn't a dig at you.

[Moony]

Originally Posted by Richard B

Like the governor, Tookie refuses to take responsibility for what he did. He's a loser and now for the families of the victims, they will have justice.

I think it's disgusting that he won't own up to his actions.

I hope none of you here ever, ever have to have a family member or close friend murdered in cold blood.

Therein lies the rub. I am very opposed to the death penalty, and yet, if someone killed one of my loved ones, I think I would screaming for their blood. I shudder to think how I would react in such a situation.

A big contradiction, I know, but...I still believe that as a society, we are above the death penalty.

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Moony

That wasn't a dig at you.

Awww...I like the Moony and thanks...but I'm serious...I've pondered this since I was 12 and I just end up more frustrated and confused. I just wish there was a better solution to this mess.

[Moony]

Originally Posted by Richard B

I just wish there was a better solution to this mess.

Me, too, Richard.

Actually, I think the solution lies in nurturing our youth and giving them access to quality education, jobs, and opportunities.

Then again, I'm probably being naive.

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Moony

Therein lies the rub. I am very opposed to the death penalty, and yet, if someone killed one of my loved ones, I think I would screaming for their blood. I shudder to think how I would react in such a situation.

A big contradiction, I know, but...I still believe that as a society, we are above the death penalty.

I feel the same way. It's such an ugly catch 22 and thinking about it makes my brain hurt.

A friend and I checked out this web site a few months ago (Tookie unrelated) and thought about picking a death row inmate to write to. I want to hear their thoughts. Kinda weird, I know. Like Tookie, some of them admit their innocence while on death row.

[sasja]

Having worked in Juvenile Forensics, yes, there ARE better ideas AND they are worked on daily and nightly by very overworked, underpaid, highly caring and dedicated social workers and therapists and psychiatrists, in programs that constantly get fundings cut or yanked.

Early intervention and treatment and teaching kids better skill-sets help tremendously. I have worked with a group of juvenile sex-offenders of which, so far and 6 years later, 85 % managed to NOT repeat-offend .
However, many kids do NOT get the compassion, care, treatment and intervention it would take to allow them to be productive and healthy members of our group (society). The prisons are overflowing with them at later ages

I personally think that, as a society, it is the duty of everyone belonging to the societal group to keep the group healthy and functioning and safe.
If that means dedicating money and resources to understand, treat and diminish the deviate element, that is what needs to be done.

Just "locking-up after violent acts have been committed and laws have been broken" is obviously NOT key to solving the issue, nor is: "sitting around and waiting till a murderer is grown and allowed to act out, then realizing this and killing him/her in turn" , for fundamentally it changes NOTHING.

It's just a band-aid for the symptom, and a lowering ourselves to the standard we are wishing to weed out.

The penal system as it stands needs complete revision. That is another very unpopular stance in this society where asking for group-responsibility and giving up something of yourself (oh no! taxes!) to benefit the group setting, are considered almost bigger crimes than committing murder.

The idea is this:

Start in schools (skill teaching classes, anger management, tolerance, multicultural diversity understanding classes) and start with parent education, which should be as standardly prescribed and mandated by pediatricians as your vaccines. Oh boy, that 'll cost a lot of money! Yup. Higher taxes and MUCH more responsibly divvying up of those taxes will be needed. Maybe even, GASP! volunteers!

Then, indentifying risk-children much more efficiently, follow their development and offer them and their families additional support. Counselling, vocational training, outward-bound programs for inner-city kids, all are already proving to have a huge positive impact and making a big difference.

As a group, taking responsibility and making all efforts to see that the violent, the deviate, gets weeded out from the early start, is my idea.

And then, if we still let people fall through the cracks, we should not be allowed to shrug our shoulders and just "kill them" so we don't have to see them around any longer and no longer be reminded of how we failed and allowed murderers and sexoffenders and kidnappers and all those other horrible criminals to grow and fester in our group without doing anything about it.

I am sorry, but it just gets my goat when people who want the rights and priviledges of belonging to a group, are quick to shir the responsibility for keeping it healthy.

There are some people, and granted the numbers are rapidly dwindling due to lack of support and due to burn-out therefor, who are working their butts off to try and prevent murderers ffrom budding out and coming to full bloom.

I burned-out there for a while and am trying to re-charge so I can go back into the trenches.

And I salute all my former colleagues and still friends who are continuing to fight the good fight. One day hopefully the death penalty debate will be a moot point... and prisons rehab centers instead..

Sasja

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by Moony

Oh, how I love thee.

I'm glad to see there are voices of reason (Dissention, sasja, and others) to counteract the voices of stupidity (we all know who they are)

Counteract the voices of stupidity???...hmmm...

Well if me and homie are considered the "voices of stupidity" then we sure are in the minority...I think there should be more of us to counter the "reason"...there is just way to much of that damn "reason" going on around here.

(and at least have the guts to name who you are talking about...)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by Moony

I think I would screaming for their blood

Uh oh!....

There goes the "reason" I suppose...

sheesh...you barbaric murderer what's your deal!?!

[Moony]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

Counteract the voices of stupidity???...hmmm...

Well if me and homie are considered the "voices of stupidity" then we sure are in the minority...I think there should be more of us to counter the "reason"...there is just way to much of that damn "reason" going on around here.

I'm glad you identiy yourself as "stupid." I see you're finally getting the picture!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by Moony

I'm glad you identiy yourself as "stupid." I see you're finally getting the picture!

If in your eyes (and others like you) I am considered "stupid"...I must be doing something right...


ROCK ON WITH THE "STUPID"!

[Moony]

Originally Posted by sasja

Having worked in Juvenile Forensics, yes, there ARE better ideas AND they are worked on daily and nightly by very overworked, underpaid, highly caring and dedicated social workers and therapists and psychiatrists, in programs that constantly get fundings cut or yanked.

Early intervention and treatment and teaching kids better skill-sets help tremendously. I have worked with a group of juvenile sex-offenders of which, so far and 6 years later, 85 % managed to NOT repeat-offend .
However, many kids do NOT get the compassion, care, treatment and intervention it would take to allow them to be productive and healthy members of our group (society). The prisons are overflowing with them at later ages

I personally think that, as a society, it is the duty of everyone belonging to the societal group to keep the group healthy and functioning and safe.
If that means dedicating money and resources to understand, treat and diminish the deviate element, that is what needs to be done.

Just "locking-up after violent acts have been committed and laws have been broken" is obviously NOT key to solving the issue, nor is: "sitting around and waiting till a murderer is grown and allowed to act out, then realizing this and killing him/her in turn" , for fundamentally it changes NOTHING.

It's just a band-aid for the symptom, and a lowering ourselves to the standard we are wishing to weed out.

The penal system as it stands needs complete revision. That is another very unpopular stance in this society where asking for group-responsibility and giving up something of yourself (oh no! taxes!) to benefit the group setting, are considered almost bigger crimes than committing murder.

The idea is this:

Start in schools (skill teaching classes, anger management, tolerance, multicultural diversity understanding classes) and start with parent education, which should be as standardly prescribed and mandated by pediatricians as your vaccines. Oh boy, that 'll cost a lot of money! Yup. Higher taxes and MUCH more responsibly divvying up of those taxes will be needed. Maybe even, GASP! volunteers!

Then, indentifying risk-children much more efficiently, follow their development and offer them and their families additional support. Counselling, vocational training, outward-bound programs for inner-city kids, all are already proving to have a huge positive impact and making a big difference.

As a group, taking responsibility and making all efforts to see that the violent, the deviate, gets weeded out from the early start, is my idea.

And then, if we still let people fall through the cracks, we should not be allowed to shrug our shoulders and just "kill them" so we don't have to see them around any longer and no longer be reminded of how we failed and allowed murderers and sexoffenders and kidnappers and all those other horrible criminals to grow and fester in our group without doing anything about it.

I am sorry, but it just gets my goat when people who want the rights and priviledges of belonging to a group, are quick to shir the responsibility for keeping it healthy.

There are some people, and granted the numbers are rapidly dwindling due to lack of support and due to burn-out therefor, who are working their butts off to try and prevent murderers ffrom budding out and coming to full bloom.

I burned-out there for a while and am trying to re-charge so I can go back into the trenches.

And I salute all my former colleagues and still friends who are continuing to fight the good fight. One day hopefully the death penalty debate will be a moot point... and prisons rehab centers instead..

Sasja

Wonderful post. I just wanted to say that I think the ideas you present here deserve to be put into effect.

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by sasja

Having worked in Juvenile Forensics, yes, there ARE better ideas AND they are worked on daily and nightly by very overworked, underpaid, highly caring and dedicated social workers and therapists and psychiatrists, in programs that constantly get fundings cut or yanked.

Early intervention and treatment and teaching kids better skill-sets help tremendously. I have worked with a group of juvenile sex-offenders of which, so far and 6 years later, 85 % managed to NOT repeat-offend .
However, many kids do NOT get the compassion, care, treatment and intervention it would take to allow them to be productive and healthy members of our group (society). The prisons are overflowing with them at later ages

I personally think that, as a society, it is the duty of everyone belonging to the societal group to keep the group healthy and functioning and safe.
If that means dedicating money and resources to understand, treat and diminish the deviate element, that is what needs to be done.

Just "locking-up after violent acts have been committed and laws have been broken" is obviously NOT key to solving the issue, nor is: "sitting around and waiting till a murderer is grown and allowed to act out, then realizing this and killing him/her in turn" , for fundamentally it changes NOTHING.

It's just a band-aid for the symptom, and a lowering ourselves to the standard we are wishing to weed out.

The penal system as it stands needs complete revision. That is another very unpopular stance in this society where asking for group-responsibility and giving up something of yourself (oh no! taxes!) to benefit the group setting, are considered almost bigger crimes than committing murder.

The idea is this:

Start in schools (skill teaching classes, anger management, tolerance, multicultural diversity understanding classes) and start with parent education, which should be as standardly prescribed and mandated by pediatricians as your vaccines. Oh boy, that 'll cost a lot of money! Yup. Higher taxes and MUCH more responsibly divvying up of those taxes will be needed. Maybe even, GASP! volunteers!

Then, indentifying risk-children much more efficiently, follow their development and offer them and their families additional support. Counselling, vocational training, outward-bound programs for inner-city kids, all are already proving to have a huge positive impact and making a big difference.

As a group, taking responsibility and making all efforts to see that the violent, the deviate, gets weeded out from the early start, is my idea.

And then, if we still let people fall through the cracks, we should not be allowed to shrug our shoulders and just "kill them" so we don't have to see them around any longer and no longer be reminded of how we failed and allowed murderers and sexoffenders and kidnappers and all those other horrible criminals to grow and fester in our group without doing anything about it.

I am sorry, but it just gets my goat when people who want the rights and priviledges of belonging to a group, are quick to shir the responsibility for keeping it healthy.

There are some people, and granted the numbers are rapidly dwindling due to lack of support and due to burn-out therefor, who are working their butts off to try and prevent murderers ffrom budding out and coming to full bloom.

I burned-out there for a while and am trying to re-charge so I can go back into the trenches.

And I salute all my former colleagues and still friends who are continuing to fight the good fight. One day hopefully the death penalty debate will be a moot point... and prisons rehab centers instead..

Sasja

Thank you .This is one of the best and most thoughtful posts I have ever read on this forum!I'm a Psychiatric nurse and work with a forensic population. The ideas you have described so well are exactly what I feel needs to be done. Sadly though it is just an ideal and a dream as long as we have leaders like Arnie and George W. Bush at the helm .Convincing such people of what should be glaringly obvious is a bit like going to the local Zoo and discussing it with a giraffe,and to convice the American public that more taxes need to be paid to support any of these programs?That may be even a more dismal task.

[Moony]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

Uh oh!....

There goes the "reason" I suppose...

sheesh...you barbaric murderer what's your deal!?!

The keyword there is think. I see you're having reading comprehension problems again.