My rant about concert setlists

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

Oh, like the low bass on the first track, & the bad editing of the various lead vocal trax on Goodbye Baby. Lots of other little bothersome things to these ears on that album. They're either technical/human errors or they're deliberate artistic "statements," but either way they bespeak a weakening of his once-mighty ear.

I also think his production of her stuff is weaker than before. I think Illume shows such potential but then loses its way in the gimmicks he put in that song. Same with EFO. I like the songs and him. I just think the overall production lacks the brilliance he has shown for producing her work. Of course, she was there as well and must share some of that.

[amber]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Interestingly, La Nicks has to be willing to put her music with a producer as she cannot do it herself. So, I think having that trust with someone unproven commercially would be hard for most to have especially when a false move could ruin her career. So, I think she knows she commands more drawing power for a named producer if she is with a larger label.

That makes sense. So probably a medium sized label would not be able to pay a producer that she wants?
Some producers that charge big are probably not necessarily better than some who don't charge quite as much. There just has to be a good fit.
Not that that would necessarily apply here, I was just thinking about it. You know, for when I need a producer for my album???
I mean, I would hardly expect Stevie to hunt around for a great producer at a reasonable price.
Wait..."false move ruin her career"?! um...okay...I guess...Yeah, I don't think a lot of TISL songs were very good anyway. But, you know...I guess that's true. Although I really wonder to what extent they could be "ruined" compared to how they turned out anyway.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by amber

. . . Wait..."false move ruin her career"?! um...okay...I guess...Yeah, I don't think a lot of TISL songs were very good anyway. But, you know...I guess that's true. Although I really wonder to what extent they could be "ruined" compared to how they turned out anyway.

Many regard Street Angel as a disaster that ruined her career and without The Dance she could have never regained her popularity. I tend to think that is mostly true, though a really great solo record in theory could have helped her as well, though IMO not as much as the energy of The Mac back together and sounding and looking as good as they did.

[amber]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Many regard Street Angel as a disaster that ruined her career and without The Dance she could have never regained her popularity. I tend to think that is mostly true, though a really great solo record in theory could have helped her as well, though IMO not as much as the energy of The Mac back together and sounding and looking as good as they did.

I would disagree, I think timing "ruined" her career. She'd had misteps before that. I just don't think there is any way her album would have sold that well at the time. Though SA was a bit shocking, I guess. (I like it better than TISL, though)
I agree that the Dance revived her career. Except, I also put it down to that thing that happens, you know - an artist is really famous, then out of favor and dated, and then they get older, and then they do a huge successful awesome album, and then everyone remembers how great they were, and they gain some new fans as well, etc.
It seems like a pretty standard career arc for both musicians and actors. I call it the "John Travolta".

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

So, if they played no hits and just obscure stuff what would happen - would they be able to sell that tour to anything but 2,000 person hall. I honestly do not know.

No, they absolutely would not. But yet again: That's not the issue here. Just as there are a whole lot of possibilities between recording in a basement and recording Fleetwood Mac-style, there' are also a whole lots of possibilities between playing a concert with no hits and playing a concert Fleetwood Mac-style. They don't have to drop the hits completely, but they also don't have to play every single one every single night. They could mix things up and consolidate and make room for more fun choices.

Take a look at the last tour. Let's imagine Fleetwood Mac are willing to not play the exact same set every night. We don't have to get too far away from their comfort zones: let's just stick to rotating certain songs in and out every other night. Instead of playing "Go Your Own Way" AND "Tusk" every night, they just do one or the other. Same with "Rhiannon" and "Silver Springs." Same with "Gypsy" and "Dreams." Same with "Never Going Back Again" and "Second Hand News."

So now you can go to a show and hear GYOW/Rhiannon/Gypsy/NGBA, or you can go the next night and hear Tusk/Silver Springs/Dreams/SHN. Is anybody going to feel particularly gypped either night? And now you've got FOUR open wildcard slots to throw in whatever fun obscure album track you can think of!

Let's keep rotating out! How about half the shows open with "The Chain," and half open with "Monday Morning"? Half feature "Landslide," half feature a "Crystal" duet! Half have "I'm So Afraid" and half have "Tango In the Night." Half have "World Turning" and half have "Frozen Love." Half have "Beautiful Child" and half have "Storms." Half have "Gold Dust Woman" and half have "Seven Wonders." Half have "Big Love" and half have "Trouble." Half have "Stand Back" and half have "Stop Draggin'" with Lindsey doing Petty's part. And of course all the SYW songs will get rotated out with other SYW songs. I'll even leave "Don't Stop" alone as the single constant at every show, since we don't want them screwing with anymroe of Chris' tunes (although I think "Hold Me" could work quite well). So is that everything? Now let's take a look at the possible setlists:

The Chain OR Monday Morning
WILDCARD (Stevie)
Eyes Of The World OR I Know I'm Not Wrong
Peacekeeper OR Miranda
Second Hand News OR Never Going Back Again
Say You Will OR Thrown Down
WILDCARD (Lindsey)
Rhiannon OR Silver Springs
Come OR Murrow
Gypsy OR Dreams
Big Love OR Trouble
Landslide OR Crystal
Say Goodbye OR Steal Your Heart Away
What's The World Coming To OR Red Rover
Beautiful Child OR Storms
Gold Dust Woman OR Seven Wonders
I'm So Afraid OR Tango In The Night
WILDCARD (Lindsey)
WILDCARD (Stevie)
Stand Back OR Stop Draggin' My Heart Around
Go Your Own Way OR Tusk
---
World Turning OR Frozen Love
Don't Stop
Goodbye Baby OR Everybody Finds Out

Doesn't that already make things incredibly exciting?! And you're still guaranteed at least five or six certifiable hits/staples at every show. That would completely satisfy the vast majority of casual fans, and it would leave folks like us going absolutely ape****!

[strandinthewind]

It appeals to us, but the average fan would riot if she did not sing Rhiannon, Dreams, Landslide, etc. and that is who they are selling to.

Personally, I was floored she opted not to sing Landslide on TISL in favor of a new song. So, stranger things have happened

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

It appeals to us, but the average fan would riot if she did not sing Rhiannon, Dreams, Landslide, etc. and that is who they are selling to.

It appeals to both! I think you completely missed my point. Yes, the casual fan would be disappointed if she didn't perform "Rhiannon" OR "Landslide" OR "Dreams" OR "Gypsy" OR "Silver Springs" OR "Sara." But she could perform any three of those six on any given night, and most people would be more than satisfied. They're casual fans, but they're not complete moron sheep. Nobody goes to a concert expecting to hear EVERY hit a band has ever had. And it's possible to appeal to both casual fans and die-hards.

I mean, go back to my potential setlist choices. Let's say one night the set was:

The Chain/Angel/I Know I'm Not Wrong/Peacekeeper/Never Going Back Again/Say You Will/Book Of Love/Silver Springs/Come/Dreams/Trouble/Landslide/Say Goodbye/Red Rover/Beautiful Child/Gold Dust Woman/Tango In The Night/What Makes You Think You're The One/Running Through The Garden/Stop Draggin' My Heart Around/Tusk//Frozen Love/Don't Stop/Goodbye Baby

And the next night they did the total opposite:

Monday Morning/Sara/Eyes Of The World/Miranda/Second Hand News/Thrown Down/The Ledge/Rhiannon/Murrow/Gypsy/Big Love/Crystal/Steal Your Heart Away/What's The World Coming To/Storms/Seven Wonders/I'm So Afraid/Blue Letter/Sisters Of The Moon/Stand Back/Go Your Own Way//World Turning/Don't Stop/Everybody Finds Out

Everything in bold is either a certifiable hit or a very well-known concert staple and casual fan favorite, and each show has nine of those, which is more than a third of the set, and a lot of folks might even know some of the other songs too, believe it or not. I can't imagine any casual fan walking out of either one of those shows and truly feeling as though they didn't hear enough of their favorites. And meanwhile, the folks with all the albums would be bouncing off the walls.

[johndoe]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

No, they absolutely would not. But yet again: That's not the issue here. Just as there are a whole lot of possibilities between recording in a basement and recording Fleetwood Mac-style, there' are also a whole lots of possibilities between playing a concert with no hits and playing a concert Fleetwood Mac-style. They don't have to drop the hits completely, but they also don't have to play every single one every single night. They could mix things up and consolidate and make room for more fun choices.

Take a look at the last tour. Let's imagine Fleetwood Mac are willing to not play the exact same set every night. We don't have to get too far away from their comfort zones: let's just stick to rotating certain songs in and out every other night. Instead of playing "Go Your Own Way" AND "Tusk" every night, they just do one or the other. Same with "Rhiannon" and "Silver Springs." Same with "Gypsy" and "Dreams." Same with "Never Going Back Again" and "Second Hand News."

So now you can go to a show and hear GYOW/Rhiannon/Gypsy/NGBA, or you can go the next night and hear Tusk/Silver Springs/Dreams/SHN. Is anybody going to feel particularly gypped either night? And now you've got FOUR open wildcard slots to throw in whatever fun obscure album track you can think of!

Let's keep rotating out! How about half the shows open with "The Chain," and half open with "Monday Morning"? Half feature "Landslide," half feature a "Crystal" duet! Half have "I'm So Afraid" and half have "Tango In the Night." Half have "World Turning" and half have "Frozen Love." Half have "Beautiful Child" and half have "Storms." Half have "Gold Dust Woman" and half have "Seven Wonders." Half have "Big Love" and half have "Trouble." Half have "Stand Back" and half have "Stop Draggin'" with Lindsey doing Petty's part. And of course all the SYW songs will get rotated out with other SYW songs. I'll even leave "Don't Stop" alone as the single constant at every show, since we don't want them screwing with anymroe of Chris' tunes (although I think "Hold Me" could work quite well). So is that everything? Now let's take a look at the possible setlists:

The Chain OR Monday Morning
WILDCARD (Stevie)
Eyes Of The World OR I Know I'm Not Wrong
Peacekeeper OR Miranda
Second Hand News OR Never Going Back Again
Say You Will OR Thrown Down
WILDCARD (Lindsey)
Rhiannon OR Silver Springs
Come OR Murrow
Gypsy OR Dreams
Big Love OR Trouble
Landslide OR Crystal
Say Goodbye OR Steal Your Heart Away
What's The World Coming To OR Red Rover
Beautiful Child OR Storms
Gold Dust Woman OR Seven Wonders
I'm So Afraid OR Tango In The Night
WILDCARD (Lindsey)
WILDCARD (Stevie)
Stand Back OR Stop Draggin' My Heart Around
Go Your Own Way OR Tusk
---
World Turning OR Frozen Love
Don't Stop
Goodbye Baby OR Everybody Finds Out

Doesn't that already make things incredibly exciting?! And you're still guaranteed at least five or six certifiable hits/staples at every show. That would completely satisfy the vast majority of casual fans, and it would leave folks like us going absolutely ape****!

Absolutly and totally agreed. Great idea, man. Though Eyes of The World could work as another constant. It seems to appeal to a lot more people than just average and above average fans. I've showed it to a lot of my friends who don't like FM, and 6 out of 7 people I showed it to liked it a lot. But I dunno.

[amber]

This is all very obvious to say, but how can we make them do it??? Darnit.

[johndoe]

Isn't, like, Peter Green's nephew on the board? We'll just have him tell Mick! And he'll be all "OMG OMG ! THOSE LEDGIES ARE GENIUSES!" And then they'll name the tour after this board. And it will be awesome. I swear.

[David]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

It appeals to us, but the average fan would riot if she did not sing Rhiannon, Dreams, Landslide, etc. and that is who they are selling to.

That's really an exaggeration, strand, & I don't think it's that big a deal. First of all, there's no such thing as an 'average fan' -- "fan" is short for fanatic. If you're fanatical, you're ipso facto not "average" in your admiration or attachment. So you're talking about the typical concertgoer. That person is too busy yapping & going back for a pretzel at the concession stand to care whether he hears all those hits or just a few of them. He doesn't give a ****. He's out at a concert with his pals, partying.

Secondly, Stevie didn't sing "Rhiannon" on her 1989 solo tour at all -- nor did she sing "Landslide" on that whole tour. Nobody rioted! Nobody cared all that much, if at all. We fans talked about it, but the general public at the shows -- who cared? They got to hear many recognizable things at that show -- Edge of Seventeen, Gold Dust Woman, Dreams, Stand Back. And they still went to go get more pretzels & beer at the concession stand during those!

People are out for a good time at a typical rock concert. They ultimately don't care what's being performed, within bounds of reason. What do you think the general public are doing? keeping a notebook & writing down every recognizable hit they hear from the stage, & checking it off against a second list of all hits?

Fleetwood Mac didn't even play "Rhiannon" for most of its 1987/1988 tour. Maybe a few people mentioned it ... big deal. Nobody much cared, when all was said & done, or even before that. I talked to other fans at the time: we thought it was weird because we're fans & that was the first Fleetwood Mac tour without "Rhiannon." But all those thousands of other people at the Inglewood Forum or the San Diego Sports Arena, they couldn't care less. And if it occurred to any of them at the time -- "Hey, they didn't play Rhiannon" -- it was all soon forgotten. Same story with "Gold Dust Woman," which the band never played throughout its 1979/1980 tour or its 1982 tour. Maybe this person or that person wanted to hear it (including me), but nobody died, nobody got hurt & nobody except us fans even remembers.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by amber

This is all very obvious to say, but how can we make them do it??? Darnit.

Just get me up to the front of the stage, and I'll tape copies of my setlist over the regular one.

Actually, do Fleetwood Mac even use setlists? Or do they have a race to see who can memorize the whole thing in the fewest number of shows?

[amber]

Originally Posted by johndoe

Isn't, like, Peter Green's nephew on the board? We'll just have him tell Mick! And he'll be all "OMG OMG ! THOSE LEDGIES ARE GENIUSES!" And then they'll name the tour after this board. And it will be awesome. I swear.

yes, that's precisely what will happen.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Just get me up to the front of the stage, and I'll tape copies of my setlist over the regular one.

Actually, do Fleetwood Mac even use setlists? Or do they have a race to see who can memorize the whole thing in the fewest number of shows?

They have setlists.
Stevie would freak out so bad. "We didn't rehearse this! We didn't rehearse this! I don't know the words! Help!"

[strandinthewind]

LOL - of course riot was an exaggeration

But, I remember going to those shows and being disappointed she did not sing those. I suppose the real question is would the average fan not go if they knew they or she was not singing a few of her hits. Let's hope we find out!