Article about Melbourne Cup celebs being paid for their appearances

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

I think that's partly right. The disproportionate amount of Stevie ripping is not just due to the fact that she's discussed more than other band members, but that she's completely fawned over by some people. If somebody makes an even slightly negative comment about her, there are a few people who will immediately jump to her defense and justify her every action and silly hat. Which only spurs the people who made the original complaint to take it that much further.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong... all I've ever tried to point out is the fact that Stevie fans are not the only ones who defend their favorite artist.
Go rip into Christine... rip into Lindsey... see how big it goes over on their forums. Their biggest fans are every bit as devoted and rabid as Stevie's fans, as well they should be. But folks act as if "chiffonheads" are the lone guilty party.

And I guess I just don't understand the "if you defend Stevie, then I'm going to say something even nastier next time" escalation game.

I'm not looking for sycophancy... there's a reason why I'm on the Ledge, and not someplace like the official Mac board... but, wow, we often can't even have a song appreciation thread here anymore, without at least a half dozen people saying why that song sucks.

[Jyqm]

I'm not saying you're right or wrong... all I've ever tried to point out is the fact that Stevie fans are not the only ones who defend their favorite artist.
Go rip into Christine... rip into Lindsey... see how big it goes over on their forums.

If they do or say something I don't like, I will. I did start a whole thread about hating "Don't Stop" a few weeks ago. I also dared not to be totally enamored of "Shut Us Down."

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

And I guess I just don't understand the "if you defend Stevie, then I'm going to say something even nastier next time" escalation game.

I don't think it's "if you defend Stevie," it's "if you defend Stevie for something stupid and not really defensible."

but, wow, we often can't even have a song appreciation thread here anymore, without at least a half dozen people saying why that song sucks.

Stevie's got a pretty hit-or-miss catalogue, and not everybody's going to like the same songs, especially when you're going one by one through the tracklisting for Street Angel.

[Serrart]

Well, we buy their records, watch their shows, their movies and some of them go over their role in music, cinema, etc and become symbols or simply trendy. People buy tabloids or cheap magazines to read about their last unfaithful relationship or the supposed plastic surgery they had: people get with their noses stuck at their windows watching inside their lives, and as every show that has to be paid as well.

Romy

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

If they do or say something I don't like, I will. I did start a whole thread about hating "Don't Stop" a few weeks ago.

Try that out on Christine's forum rather than on the safety of the Rumours Forum.

Originally Posted by Jyqm

I also dared not to be totally enamored of "Shut Us Down."

And, as I recall, a lot of people defended it also, and expounded on why it's one of the best songs he's released in years.

Originally Posted by Jyqm

I don't think it's "if you defend Stevie," it's "if you defend Stevie for something stupid and not really defensible."

If someone were defending Stevie for molesting a child or physically/verbally abusing someone, then I'd be worried. But as it is, I don't see Stevie's fans defending her in any way that's different from the way in which other fans defend their favorite artists. Yet, God forbid if you forget to constantly remind people of all the things you can't stand about her.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Try that out on Christine's forum rather than on the safety of the Rumours Forum.

Yes. They would be shocked someone actually posted in their forum.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

And, as I recall, a lot of people defended it also, and expounded on why it's one of the best songs he's released in years.

Hopped up on weed and Wheat Thins, they were.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by dissention

Hopped up on weed and Wheat Thins, they were.

Or whatever Ashlee Simpson was on at McDonalds the other night.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Try that out on Christine's forum rather than on the safety of the Rumours Forum.

Are there people who read only the Christine forum and not the Rumours forum? Are there people who read the Christine forum?

And, as I recall, a lot of people defended it also, and expounded on why it's one of the best songs he's released in years.

Right. So?

But as it is, I don't see Stevie's fans defending her in any way that's different from the way in which other fans defend their favorite artists. Yet, God forbid if you forget to constantly remind people of all the things you can't stand about her.

And god forbid if you ever say something remotely critical of her.

You and I hang out on some very different fan forums. I tend to stick to places where legitimate criticism of the artist in question is common and makes things interesting. But I apologize that I and a few others would like to see Stevie live up to her potential to be a more engaging and committed performer/recording artist, and are disappointed when she doesn't. I can't promise to try to be more complacent in the future, though.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Are there people who read only the Christine forum and not the Rumours forum? Are there people who read the Christine forum?

Yes, and they are vociferous in their defense. Honestly, I've never encountered as much hostility on the Stevie board as I did on Christine's. Someone actually said to me something like: "what are you doing over here, then?!?!? Why don't you exit this board if that's how you feel!"
That was a paraphrase, but the content was similar. And I like Christine. I actually had made a *fairly* innocuous comment. (Especially compared to the things people say about Stevelah.*)

Originally Posted by Jayquim

And god forbid if you ever say something remotely critical of her.

You and I hang out on some very different fan forums. I tend to stick to places where legitimate criticism of the artist in question is common and makes things interesting. But I apologize that I and a few others would like to see Stevie live up to her potential to be a more engaging and committed performer/recording artist, and are disappointed when she doesn't. I can't promise to try to be more complacent in the future, though.

mlah mlah.

It's not really that dramatic, actually.

Some defend her, about certain things, (those things not necessarily being the quality of her recent performances).
I think many of us realize that Stevie is operating at her potential. At least the current amount of potential we'll ever see. Sure, it sucks, comparatively, but we can't really ask Stevie to step back to her mindset of 1982. It's totally unreasonable. If you don't like it now, don't go - but it seems clear what you should expect. If you think she sucks soooooo bad now that you could never watch her perform - Just own that. It's true. If you feel that way, you shouldn't go. But why bitch excessively? It seems to me that we should all know what to expect.

Some realize that she will never be what we want her to be, or what she was before, but that a concert or album may have enjoyable parts, anyway, because they still contain that unique voice, and sensibility, that only one person in the world has. ( this would partially be my opinion).

Additionally, I realize her value to FM - besides all she did before, previously, and totally discounting that - Her sense of harmony is still exquisite, if you think of a lot of songs from the SYW performances, those two together, vocally, made it magical. Even with Stevie's severely limited range. *beautiful child stands out especially to me, besides Chain, and the other obvious harmony songs. I cried every frickin time during BC - not because of the words, but because the vocal blending was so beautiful and exquisite.*

Some people are blindly defensive. I don't have much to say about that, because I barely understand it.

Some people see the gaping flaws, but still have an incredible amount of respect for her because of her catalogue. And can you really logically argue against that? Good lord, I hope not! She's the most unusual performer to come along in decades, vocally, lyrically, harmonically. And she has a buttload of songs - chances are you'll dig more than one.

These people realize that you can't hit a home run every time, and you may, at times, suck a lot.

But the genius of when you (Stevie) didn't suck (when you wuhhhhhhh goood) overrides a lot of complaints. That would be my view as well.

Also, there are those who can make fun, and see the flaws, but still love and acknowlege the genius. That's me too, very much. Very, very , very much. If I had a Stevie theme, that would be it.

But sesly, when Stevie is bad, it is sooo ridiculous. Embarrassing, even, to say the least.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by amber

Yes, and they are vociferous in their defense. Honestly, I've never encountered as much hostility on the Stevie board as I did on Christine's. Someone actually said to me something like: "what are you doing over here, then?!?!? Why don't you exit this board if that's how you feel!"

Yeah, I think I've seen folks do that on the Lindsey board as well.

I think many of us realize that Stevie is operating at her potential. At least the current amount of potential we'll ever see.

That doesn't really make much sense. I agree that she's operating at about the level we ought to realistically expect from here on out. But that doesn't mean she's living up to her potential. She clearly has the potential to do a lot more.

If you don't like it now, don't go - but it seems clear what you should expect.

I don't go, and don't plan on going in the future. Although that has much more to do with ticket prices than performance.

If you think she sucks soooooo bad now that you could never watch her perform - Just own that.

I don't think she "sucks soooooo bad," and I doubt that the other folks who dare to offer up complaints think so either. But that's the problem on this board - if you criticize, some people think you're saying that Stevie out and out sucks. Which simply isn't the case, at least for me.

But why bitch excessively?

I really don't think I've bitched excessively. I think I offer up a pretty reasonable mix of praise, criticism and general discussion on this board. If the bitching seems excessive, it's probably only because these conversations get so belabored like this when the folks who dare to criticize are put on the defensive.

Some people see the gaping flaws, but still have an incredible amount of respect for her because of her catalogue. And can you really logically argue against that?

Have I? I fall largely into the same camp as you on almost everything else you brought up in your post.

[sara1998]

This whole thread is cracking me up! Talk about Jekyl and Hyde....

[amber]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Yeah, I think I've seen folks do that on the Lindsey board as well.



That doesn't really make much sense. I agree that she's operating at about the level we ought to realistically expect from here on out. But that doesn't mean she's living up to her potential. She clearly has the potential to do a lot more.



I don't go, and don't plan on going in the future. Although that has much more to do with ticket prices than performance.



I don't think she "sucks soooooo bad," and I doubt that the other folks who dare to offer up complaints think so either. But that's the problem on this board - if you criticize, some people think you're saying that Stevie out and out sucks. Which simply isn't the case, at least for me.



I really don't think I've bitched excessively. I think I offer up a pretty reasonable mix of praise, criticism and general discussion on this board. If the bitching seems excessive, it's probably only because these conversations get so belabored like this when the folks who dare to criticize are put on the defensive.



Have I? I fall largely into the same camp as you on almost everything else you brought up in your post.

Sorry, I actually wasn't talking about you bitching excessively. I meant the collective "you". Yeah, you haven't bitched much.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Are there people who read only the Christine forum and not the Rumours forum? Are there people who read the Christine forum?

As Amber said, yes, there most definitely are.

Originally Posted by Jyqm

And god forbid if you ever say something remotely critical of her.

Again... that wasn't my point. You said that people often step up their criticisms of Stevie to make up for, or retaliate against, those who feel she can do no wrong and aggressively defend her.

I simply want to know why umbrage is only taken when it concerns Stevie and her fans.

Originally Posted by Jyqm

You and I hang out on some very different fan forums. I tend to stick to places where legitimate criticism of the artist in question is common and makes things interesting. But I apologize that I and a few others would like to see Stevie live up to her potential to be a more engaging and committed performer/recording artist, and are disappointed when she doesn't. I can't promise to try to be more complacent in the future, though.

I prefer message boards that aren't filled with sycophants, but, conversely, aren't filled with people who complain about the same old things, ad nauseum.

The thing that folks don't seem to "get" about me, is that I'm not saying... nor have I ever said... that Stevie's perfect, or that she can do no wrong, or that it wouldn't be more interesting and special for the fans if she'd perform more rare songs, or try something off the beaten path a little more often... it's just that I've grown weary of reading the same complaints about the same things, time and time again. And you can say, "well, don't read those threads," but it's seeped into ALL threads.

There are some things in life we can change and there are some things we can't, and complaining about the latter never does any good.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Again... that wasn't my point. You said that people often step up their criticisms of Stevie to make up for, or retaliate against, those who feel she can do no wrong and aggressively defend her.

I simply want to know why umbrage is only taken when it concerns Stevie and her fans.

Is it? I haven't noticed it much with Lindsey or Chris, but I think that's largely because there's much less activity on their forums. But if somebody wants to try and justify Lindsey's infuriating stangancy by saying, "Well, he just needs to take his time and make everything perfect," I'll gladly take the, "The hell with that, release a f***ing album already" position.

it's just that I've grown weary of reading the same complaints about the same things, time and time again. And you can say, "well, don't read those threads," but it's seeped into ALL threads.

By the same token, however, it can also get a little tiresome and frustrating seeing the same "Oh well!" justifications over and over again. Perhaps I'm simply a lot less cynical than some fans, but I actually don't believe that Stevie is completely doomed to forever be resting on her tired old warhorse-laurels. The day that I completely embrace that idea is probably the day that I stop really being an active fan, because really, at that juncture, what's the point? And while I don't really believe that Stevie or her people pay too much attention to this message board, I still believe that the more fans express their desire to see Stevie try new and different things, the more likely she is to hopefully get the message at some point.

[jannieC]

I have always felt that Stevie still *sounds* as good, of not better sometimes, as she ever did. It's her emotional presence that gets to me and has ever since the Enchanted tour. She seems bored and not with us. Am I the only one who feels this way? This thread has really intrested me because you all are posting such awesome, well-thought posts. (I know my observation is kind of bleh compared to others here).

Originally Posted by amber

Some people see the gaping flaws, but still have an incredible amount of respect for her because of her catalogue. And can you really logically argue against that? Good lord, I hope not! She's the most unusual performer to come along in decades, vocally, lyrically, harmonically. And she has a buttload of songs - chances are you'll dig more than one.

These people realize that you can't hit a home run every time, and you may, at times, suck a lot.

But the genius of when you (Stevie) didn't suck (when you wuhhhhhhh goood) overrides a lot of complaints. That would be my view as well.

Also, there are those who can make fun, and see the flaws, but still love and acknowlege the genius. That's me too, very much. Very, very , very much. If I had a Stevie theme, that would be it.

But sesly, when Stevie is bad, it is sooo ridiculous. Embarrassing, even, to say the least.

This really resonates with me- well said.