Diana Krall's Christmas Songs - Page 13

The Tower · #**181** 11-02-2005, 05:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

Maybe that wasn't the best term...

But I think you get what I was trying to say...right?

I get exactly what you are trying to say. The concept of a "universal accident" is based backwards logic. There was no "accident" in the equation. Humanity doesn't know the exact origin of the universe- I'm okay with not knowing that.

Brwn_eyes0511 · #**182** 11-02-2005, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tower

I get exactly what you are trying to say. The concept of a "universal accident" is based backwards logic. There was no "accident" in the equation. Humanity doesn't know the exact origin of the universe- I'm okay with not knowing that.

You seem to think I was trying to "twist" something around. I wasn't and I apologize if it seemed that way.

Your last statement is my point...you may be fine with just thinking that there is no explanation of the origin of the universe...but that doesn't cut it for me. I have longing for something other than this world...It's partly what fuels my faith.

strandinthewind · #**183** 11-02-2005, 05:10 PM

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Originally Posted by dissention

"Universal accident"? Crikey.

That would have been matching maroon and blue in the 80's - OY!

amber · #**184** 11-02-2005, 05:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

But is it really illogical to think that I am more than just a universal accident.

"universal accident" is a hugely black and white term. In theory, just because "God" didn't create you does not mean you have to label your existence as a "universal accident". Nature works in very precise and mostly predictable ways, actually - so the term accident is not apropos. Secondly, why would your life have any less meaning to you and those around you just because you believe in god? It's the same life either way. With the same possibilities and potential. Why would you need a giant parent figure named god to justify your existence to? Can you not live, impact, function without the constant notion that your actions are pleasing someone else - someone nobody has ever seen and there is little to no evidence of? Because that's what you are doing.

Brwn_eyes0511 · #**185** 11-02-2005, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

That would have been matching maroon and blue in the 80's - OY!

It was a bad choice of words! For the third time now...

Brwn_eyes0511 · #**186** 11-02-2005, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amber

"universal accident" is a hugely black and white term. In theory, just because "God" didn't create you does not mean you have to label your existence as a "universal accident". Nature works in very precise and mostly predictable ways, actually - so the term accident is not apropos. Secondly, why would your life have any less meaning to you and those around you just because you believe in god? It's the same life either way. With the same possibilities and potential. Why would you need a giant parent figure named god to justify your existence to? Can you not live, impact, function without the constant notion that your actions are pleasing someone else - someone nobody has ever seen and there is little to no evidence of? Because that's what you are doing.

I didn't say we as human beings couldn't function without a belief in a higher power. Of course we all could do so...I just choose to believe a loving God.

But that still doesn't answer my question. Are those who choose to believe in a higher power...illogical?

amber · #**187** 11-02-2005, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

You seem to think I was trying to "twist" something around. I wasn't and I apologize if it seemed that way.

Your last statement is my point...you may be fine with just thinking that there is no explanation of the origin of the universe...but that doesn't cut it for me. I have longing for something other than this world...It's partly what fuels my faith.

I have a longing for something other than this world, too. You know, time travel, magic carpets, talking animals - It would be great if my surroundings were like the movie Legend, or Neverending Story.
It doesn't mean that I could honestly believe those places exist without a shred of evidence, in fact against huge amounts of evidence that they don't exist. I would never discard all my knowlege and all the knowlege that is available to me that has been proven - so that I would feel better, and think that those places actually exist.

amber · #**188** 11-02-2005, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

I didn't say we as human beings couldn't function without a belief in a higher power. Of course we all could do so...I just choose to believe a loving God.

But that still doesn't answer my question. Are those who choose to believe in a higher power...illogical?

Oh, sorry - yes, they are. Doesn't make it wrong, doesn't mean you can't do it, but using the actual rules of logic - it is very illogical. It's about as illogical as believing in...oh, say...leprechauns. There is the same amount of empirical evidence that leprechauns exist that there is that god exists.

Jyqm · #**189** 11-02-2005, 05:33 PM

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Originally Posted by amber

This was a good post. That is an interesting dichotomy of the human psyche. While reading it, I also thought of something else. Does science really fail to provide logic and order that religion does provide? I would say no.

Well, as the science-and-religion-can-coexist proponents like to say: "Science answer the how; religion answers the why." Which is true. The question, though, ironically enough, is why do we need a why?

I tend to ask: Why not?

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Religion mainly requires that you have faith in something you never see, and this thing, not you and everything else, are responsible for what happens in the world. And it requires only that you learn a set of rules which ARE based on judgement rather than unbiased openness to all knowledge, and the freedom to explore such knowlege.

I think most humans are nearly incapable at this time of accepting that kind of responsibility, and incapable of accepting their own true nature, and that they may actually be the ones controlling their lives, to a large degree responsible for their own destinies. It's hard to think that. It may be painful.

Absolutely! Have you read Nietzsche? That strikes me as a very Uebermensch line of thinking. One of Nietzsche's big ideas was completely throwing away and rejecting all of the external moral codes you've ever been taught and coming to grips with that true nature by opening yourself to all knowledge - and then constructing your own moral code from yourself, which celebrates yourself rather than denigrating yourself as a sinner or a lesser being who needs to submit to a higher authority to be kept in line.

But yes, most people are incapable of taking that kind of responsibility for themselves. And some of the ones who think they are capable of it end up becoming the Hitlers of the world...

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Anyway, great post, very thought provoking.

And yourself as well!

Jyqm · #**190** 11-02-2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

But is it really illogical to think that I am more than just a universal accident.

That depends. What's your logic behind thinking that you're more than just a "universal accident"?

strandinthewind · #**191** 11-02-2005, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyqm

That depends. What's your logic behind thinking that you're more than just a "universal accident"?

or for that matter that accidents ever actually occur in nature as expectation is a relatively human phenomenon

Jyqm · #**192** 11-02-2005, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amber

I have a longing for something other than this world, too. You know, time travel, magic carpets, talking animals - It would be great if my surroundings were like the movie Legend, or Neverending Story.

Man, I'm glad my surroundings aren't like The Neverending Story. Everything in that movie was just damn creepy. The turtle, the dog dragon guy, the wolf, the guy on the snail, even the princess. Yeeugh.

GIVE ME A NAME!!!!!

The Tower · #**193** 11-02-2005, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

I didn't say we as human beings couldn't function without a belief in a higher power. Of course we all could do so...I just choose to believe a loving God.

How do you, as a person of faith in a loving god, look at the concepts of pestilence and natural disasters that kill millions of people? What do you think about all the poverty and suffering in the world? How does that work into your concept of a loving god?

I know how I, as a secular humanist, look at these things. I was just wondering what you think.

amber · #**194** 11-02-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyqm

Man, I'm glad my surroundings aren't like The Neverending Story. Everything in that movie was just damn creepy. The turtle, the dog dragon guy, the wolf, the guy on the snail, even the princess. Yeeugh.

GIVE ME A NAME!!!!!

yes, but my point still holds. I guess I was mainly thinking of the flying part, and the being transported to another world while you are reading. Plus that cloud princess place.

Jyqm · #**195** 11-02-2005, 05:48 PM

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Originally Posted by amber

I don't think I have actually actually read Nietzsche, I've read a crash course version, and excerpts, probably. But, in a sense, haven't many of us grown up with Nietzsche's concepts kind of in the collective unconscious of our society? His thoughts at the time really had a big impact, and have obviously rippled through time in many layers of society's and human existence and knowlege since they were published.
But no, I"ve learned, like I said, almost nothing about what Neitzche actually said. So, I guess it was just logic that brought me to those conclusions.

That's great, I'm glad some of Nietzsche's ideas have kind of become ingrained in our culture like that. I think I came to some of those conclusions before reading any Nietzsche as well, but I think it might have been after I'd read a lot of Rand, who has a lot of Nietzschean influences in her work.

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So, do you think that science is a more logical web of knowlege than religion?

Oh absolutely. As much as I respect some of the great Western religious philosophers, and as much as some of them were very logical in their writings, at its core there's simply very little logic to be found in theology. But I think most theologians might tell you that that's partly the point: Logic can only take you so far, and that's where faith comes in. I don't buy that, but I think that's usually the thinking.