Giuliani 08

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by amber

No, not communism. But there is a middle ground. It's just almost impossible for americans to imagine it, because we are the most consumptive society ever. We feel like we need certain things. We feel entitled to a certain way of life. I'm not saying I have the answers, but I am definitely saying that a bunch of the answers have already been identified, and no politician is willing to commit to them wholeheartedly. But I feel strongly that Capitalism, in it's present definition, and practice, is unworkable for much longer. It's the same old Power grab for resources and the control of them. Perhaps it's human nature, but I don't think it's the totality of human nature, which gives me hope.

The human nature part is individuality, which I firmly believe humans need to survive.

But and again, at what point do I determine what I need? I can assure you whatever point I chose, there will be someone who thinks I am an a$$ for wasting my money on things I do not need.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I am not talking about that. I am talking about personal donations, which was clear from my post.

But, regarding you changing of the topic, I agree and if the fat were trimmed, out taxes could be cut in half or more.

You changed the topic, Jason, because I wasn't discussing personal donations or anything of the sort. I was talking about public assistance in response to your post about the sucking of the public tit and that never changed.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

It applies to your statement judging people for buying Timberland shoes and bling bling. How do you know that the person buying that did not give to charity as well You don't - yet you made the assumption.

I'm talking about people bitching that their tax dollars are going to people on public assistance who are going to buy Timberlands and bling bling with that money, hon. I.e. abuse public assistance.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by dissention

"Thank God that George Bush is our president."
-August 31, 2004

'Nuff said.

hey now, you owe me royalties!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by amber

. . . So, does anyone (Strand?) have the statistical numbers on Gov't spending yet?

How come I always gotta do the work

Actually, I will say this. I posted in a thread awhile back that W is throwing an historical amount of money at poverty in an attempt to keep it at the relatively and comparatively low current rate and to prevent that rate from rising any more. Yet, people slammed me for daring to suggest that that was a good thing

[Brwn_eyes0511]

[QUOTE=dissention]

I'm talking about people bitching that their tax dollars are going to people on public assistance who are going to buy Timberlands and bling bling with that money, hon. I.e. abuse public assistance.

We don't exactly bitch about that. I bitch about the fact that half of the people getting "our tax dollars" don't NEED it, when so many other people do. Welfare started out as one thing...but ended up as something else.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

. . . I'm talking about people bitching that their tax dollars are going to people on public assistance who are going to buy Timberlands and bling bling with that money, hon. I.e. abuse public assistance.

I misunderstood you

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I misunderstood you

And I got lectured because of it. Pfffffft.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by amber

Wow, I'm suprised Diss didn't answer this.
Well, little Sparky, it all starts with a lesson in how Capitalism works, and why....
Seriously, it does, but it's pretty complicated.
But in the simple way, it comes down to: The gov't, and most other people, don't give a crap about the homeless, or why they are homeless, etc. And they certainly don't want to allocate money to take care of the problem. I believe that statistics will back up the fact that most homeless people are mentally ill somehow. I mean, it's hard to care about homeless people, or even education, when there is huge money to be spent on defense.

Here in sunny CA, we can thank dear old Teflon Ron for the huge numbers of homeless roaming the streets....many of whom are also vietnam vets btw, all of which have some sort of mental issue which prevents their dealing with responsibility (like bill paying, grocery shopping, shelter procuring etc) they get a pittance first of the month (usually from GA, I should know) spend it on cel phones, booze and cigarettes. its gone by the end of the first week. the other three weeks, they bum off of people, dumpster dive, engage in petty thievery, pester Behavioral Health for meds and generally avoid baths. and toothbrushes. Not my idea of a fun life.

[amber]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

The human nature part is individuality, which I firmly believe humans need to survive.

But and again, at what point do I determine what I need? I can assure you whatever point I chose, there will be someone who thinks I am an a$$ for wasting my money on things I do not need.

1) You can be "individual" without buying ****. In fact, I think people love their individuality the most when they are engaged in work that means something to them. But that's another thing.
2) It's impossible for you, like it is for many Americans, to think outside the paradigm of the current system you are ensconced in. It's bigger, and different, and more whole, than you giving up your personal stuff you have right now. That's not the point at all. So I can't really discuss the microcosmic point of "you giving up something" because that's not really what it's about. It's about a whole system, a whole thought process, a way of thinking...globally about the future...(cheesy Cali phrase, but nevertheless apropos.)
2) You're bringing it to the micro, when it's really about the macro.

[strandinthewind]

Here are some sites about the breakdown of public assistance.

I am working through them now and do not know too much about their credibility.

http://www.oecd.org/topicstatsportal..._1_1_1,00.html

http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/stecgovt.html

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...ment-book.html

Happy Reading

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

How come I always gotta do the work

Actually, I will say this. I posted in a thread awhile back that W is throwing an historical amount of money at poverty in an attempt to keep it at the relatively and comparatively low current rate and to prevent that rate from rising any more. Yet, people slammed me for daring to suggest that that was a good thing

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, you got slammed because you said poverty was worse under Clinton than Bush and tried to justify it by saying he threw more $$$$ at it. you LATER said that the high poverty numbers under Clinton werent his fault which I could actually agree with. and thats how we left it. dont make me spank you!!

[amber]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Here in sunny CA, we can thank dear old Teflon Ron for the huge numbers of homeless roaming the streets....many of whom are also vietnam vets btw, all of which have some sort of mental issue which prevents their dealing with responsibility (like bill paying, grocery shopping, shelter procuring etc) they get a pittance first of the month (usually from GA, I should know) spend it on cel phones, booze and cigarettes. its gone by the end of the first week. the other three weeks, they bum off of people, dumpster dive, engage in petty thievery, pester Behavioral Health for meds and generally avoid baths. and toothbrushes. Not my idea of a fun life.

Don't. Even. Get. Me.Started.About.Reagan.
Also, yes, exactly. The vietnam vets are the most poignant and sad of these homeless stories, too, and I see soooo many. Those are some mental issues that would take years of intensive therapy to overcome. I shudder to think of the mental baggage that the Iraq soldiers will come home with. It doesn't just hurt them, it hurts society as a whole.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Here in sunny CA, we can thank dear old Teflon Ron for the huge numbers of homeless roaming the streets....many of whom are also vietnam vets btw, all of which have some sort of mental issue which prevents their dealing with responsibility (like bill paying, grocery shopping, shelter procuring etc) they get a pittance first of the month (usually from GA, I should know) spend it on cel phones, booze and cigarettes. its gone by the end of the first week. the other three weeks, they bum off of people, dumpster dive, engage in petty thievery, pester Behavioral Health for meds and generally avoid baths. and toothbrushes. Not my idea of a fun life.

I brought that up when Ronny croaked and was accused of being a heartless bastard with no class.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Here are some sites about the breakdown of public assistance.

I am working through them now and do not know too much about their credibility.

http://www.oecd.org/topicstatsportal..._1_1_1,00.html

http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/stecgovt.html

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...ment-book.html

Happy Reading

its more accurate to go to a county accounting site, because it is the counties that administer the funds for GA. Cash Aid, (the program that helps parents with children) is different from General Assistance. The monies come out of two different pots.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by amber

1) You can be "individual" without buying ****. In fact, I think people love their individuality the most when they are engaged in work that means something to them. But that's another thing.

They do, but look at all the beauriful things in the world people have had the money to commission. Look at the works of art. Look at the beautiful houses built. Look at the skyscrapers. All that took money to express individuality

Originally Posted by amber

2) It's impossible for you, like it is for many Americans, to think outside the paradigm of the current system you are ensconced in. It's bigger, and different, and more whole, than you giving up your personal stuff you have right now. That's not the point at all. So I can't really discuss the microcosmic point of "you giving up something" because that's not really what it's about. It's about a whole system, a whole thought process, a way of thinking...globally about the future...(cheesy Cali phrase, but nevertheless apropos.)

Well that was condecending Of course I can think outside of the box. But, I, like you, cannot think of any solution that is better than fixing the system we have now. If you can - let's hear it.