Hillary’s ‘American Dream’: Stuck in the Middle With You

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by dissention

He looked like one of the giant condoms from Woody Allen's Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Sex when he went to NASA.

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

But Kerry never claimed to be an "average fundamentalist" to MY knowledge ??? Maybe he's in the wrong party???

My point was, when Kerry said he "personally opposed abortion" and "supported faith-based initiatives," he was attempting to pander to the fundamentalist base. It didn't work, though, because fundatmentalists don't want "personal opposition;" they want religion and politics mixed. They didn't buy it and that's why it was a poor strategy on Kerry's part.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by dissention

Almost...almost.

All those stupid things are just photo-ops and it just shows how stupid our society is when we need photo-ops like jet flying and dear murdering to help us decide who to vote for. I don't give a **** who I'd rather have a beer with, I don't ****ing drink. It's all so...stupid.

true. Clinton didnt do it as a photo op, it was a spontaneous act (to go into McDonalds while jogging) that hit a chord in America and politicians have been trying to copy that formula ever since. Part of the Clinton charm is his naturalness. He's just folks. Sure, hes important but he never forgot his roots and people can tell the difference between a REAL person and a PHOTO OP person.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

But Kerry never claimed to be an "average fundamentalist" to MY knowledge ??? Maybe he's in the wrong party???

Honey, it's people like him that give Democrats a bad rap. Phoney, rich white men who try to be everything to everyone. At least the Republicans don't pretend to be what they aren't. They're misguided little souls that **** on this country with their policies, but they don't put on airs about their beliefs or try to soften them to get liberal votes. They want Jesus, they want him now, and they say so.

Democrats, on the other hand, have such a muddled platform that I doubt even they know what they stand for these days.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

My point was, when Kerry said he "personally opposed abortion" and "supported faith-based initiatives," he was attempting to pander to the fundamentalist base. It didn't work, though, because fundatmentalists don't want "personal opposition;" they want religion and politics mixed. They didn't buy it and that why it was a poor strategy on Kerry's part.

it was a definite mistake to pander to the evangelicals (and by extension, the GOP moderates) as Kerry is not GOP! That wasnt a smart move strategically speaking I'll agree.

but as a Liberal, I could still understand where he was coming from because I would expect him to separate his personal beliefs from his duty as the President. (as I would expect from any elected (or appointed) official)

Our founding fathers wanted Church and State separate and we are so muddy now, Im sure they are turning over in their graves...its sickening...

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by dissention

Honey, it's people like him that give Democrats a bad rap. Phoney, rich white men who try to be everything to everyone. At least the Republicans don't pretend to be what they aren't. They're misguided little souls that **** on this country with their policies, but they don't put on airs about their beliefs or try to soften them to get liberal votes. They want Jesus, they want him now, and they say so.

Democrats, on the other hand, have such a muddled platform that I doubt even they know what they stand for these days.

Well, I can certainly see why you and others would say that....Im not saying I disagree either....as for the Dems, you're right, we ARE lost as a party....all I know is that I STILL believe in the old traditional Liberal Democratic values of looking out for the little guy, and keeping a lid on the shenanigans of big business. We really need a saviour about now....

[dissention]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

all I know is that I STILL believe in the old traditional Liberal Democratic values of looking out for the little guy, and keeping a lid on the shenanigans of big business. We really need a saviour about now....

Then you should join the Green party and ditch the Democrats...you know, the Democratic party that supports big business wholeheartedly.

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Our founding fathers wanted Church and State separate and we are so muddy now, Im sure they are turning over in their graves...its sickening...

Very true.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by dissention

Then you should join the Green party and ditch the Democrats...you know, the Democratic party that supports big business wholeheartedly.

if they were more viable I would. I'd still like my vote to count (course, nowadays with rigged elections, maybe it doesnt matter any more)
I cant stand Camejo but I do like much of what the Green Party stands for....
hmmmm......something to think about.....

[dissention]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

if they were more viable I would. I'd still like my vote to count (course, nowadays with rigged elections, maybe it doesnt matter any more)

How does your vote count if it goes to a party that isn't going to uphold your beliefs and is instead going to **** on the country just as much as the Republicans? That's what I don't understand.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by dissention

How does your vote count if it goes to a party that isn't going to uphold your beliefs and is instead going to **** on the country just as much as the Republicans? That's what I don't understand.

The Dems DO represent my core beliefs (legal abortion, separation of church and state, civil rights, environmentalism).....but there is strength in numbers and even if I get upset with the party, I would only interfere with their ability to effect change if I jumped ship......Some Dems are better than others, thats true of people in general. but the "tipping point" hasnt been reached enuff for me to defect to the Greens, as much as I admire them. I admire Ralph Nader too, but not enuff to bleed my party by switching...

I dont like the connections to big business, that makes me sick but how do you compete in todays political climate without financial backing?

[dissention]

Mike Malloy is fantastic tonight!

"Scotty sounds like he's at a Scientology meeting."

And then he plays that stupid "Scotty Doesn't Know" song.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

well its not as bad as wearing a flight suit on an aircraft carrier when you've never flown a jet

Did you actually just make this glaring error

Bush was a fighter pilot and has flown jets before as evidenced here http://www.usatoday.com/news/politic...h-record_x.htm

I get that his record was and is cloudy and he was and is an a$$ - but, he did fly jets.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Did you actually just make this glaring error

Bush was a fighter pilot and has flown jets before as evidenced here http://www.usatoday.com/news/politic...h-record_x.htm

I get that his record was and is cloudy and he was and is an a$$ - but, he did fly jets.

He didn't fly the jet that landed on that aircraft carrier. In fact the limited training he received on the aircraft he flew in TANG insured he would never go to Vietnam. The aircraft he trained on was never used there.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

He didn't fly the jet that landed on that aircraft carrier. In fact the limited training he received on the aircraft he flew in TANG insured he would never go to Vietnam. The aircraft he trained on was never used there.

I know he did not land that jet on the aircraft carrier, but he did fly it for a portion of the flight, to wit and emphasis supplied:

Commander in Chief lands on USS Lincoln

ABOARD USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN (CNN) --President Bush made a landing aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln Thursday, arriving in the co-pilot's seat of a Navy S-3B Viking after making two fly-bys of the carrier.

It was the first time a sitting president has arrived on the deck of an aircraft carrier by plane. The jet made what is known as a "tailhook" landing, with the plane, traveling about 150 mph, hooking onto the last of four steel wires across the flight deck and coming to a complete stop in less than 400 feet.

The exterior of the four-seat Navy S-3B Viking was marked with "Navy 1" in the back and "George W. Bush Commander-in-Chief" just below the cockpit window. On the plane's tail was the insignia of the squadron, the "Blue Wolves."

Moments after the landing, the president, wearing a green flight suit and holding a white helmet, got off the plane, saluted those on the flight deck and shook hands with them. Above him, the tower was adorned with a big sign that read, "Mission Accomplished."

Bush said he did take a turn at piloting the craft.

"Yes, I flew it. Yeah, of course, I liked it," said Bush, who was an F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas Air National Guard after graduating from Yale University in 1968.

"Great job," said Bush, a wide smile stretched across his face as he posed for photographs with crew members who gathered to get their pictures with the president. He draped his arms around some, slapped the backs of others and shook hands with many.

To others, the president said, "Thank you," and " 'preciate it."

At one point, he looked up to the observation deck and held up both arms to the roar of hundreds of sailors who had crowded the area.

The landing came just hours before Bush is to tell the nation that major combat operations in Iraq have ended. The speech will be delivered from the carrier's flight deck at 9 p.m. EDT.

The picture-perfect landing, covered live on television, marked the latest effort by the White House to showcase Bush as commander in chief. The president's address about the success in Iraq comes as Bush's domestic agenda is under renewed fire by Democrats, especially by a flock of White House hopefuls.

"The president's going out to an aircraft carrier to give a speech far out at sea ... while countless numbers of Americans are frightened stiff about the economy at home," said Sen. John Kerry, D-Massachusetts, who is seeking his party's presidential nomination.

In his speech to the troops Thursday night Bush will thank the U.S. military for their efforts in Iraq. "Your courage -- your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other -- made this day possible," according to excerpts of the Bush speech released in advance. "The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done."

Bush was taken in by plane because the Lincoln was too far off the California coast for a helicopter to bring him aboard.

His four-seat S-3B Viking has the safest flight record in the Navy's jet fleet. The turbofan jet performs targeting and surveillance functions for naval carrier groups.

The aircraft's pilot, Navy Cmdr. John Lussier of Orlando, Florida, said the president "enjoyed the heck out of" taking the controls and doing a couple of maneuvers.

A second pilot and a Secret Service agent were in the rear seats of the plane when it landed.

"We picked two mature pilots that also are very good landers," Capt. Kevin Albright, commander of the Lincoln's Airwing 14, said Wednesday.

Bush wanted to swoop onto the deck of the Lincoln aboard an F-18 Hornet, but the Secret Service nixed the idea -- they didn't like leaving the president unguarded in a fighter jet that only has space for the president and a pilot.

Bush had left from Naval Air Station North Island (San Diego) after being brought there from Washington via Air Force One. Just before he left for the carrier, Bush was briefed on what he would have to do to eject in case of emergency.

Officials also told CNN that in preparation for the flight, Bush underwent water survival training, which involves sitting in a simulated cockpit that fills up with water, then spins around, while the person inside has to escape and come up for air. To pilots, the training is known as "panic in a can."

White House Chief of Staff Andy Card, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice and White House spokesman Ari Fleischer were also on the flight deck, brought in on planes ahead of the president.

Back in Washington, Vice President Dick Cheney watched from his West Wing office as Bush landed. "He watched with a big smile," a Cheney aide said.

The Lincoln, currently en route to NAS North Island, has been at sea for nearly 10 months, after participating in both the Afghanistan and Iraq war theaters. The president is scheduled to spend the night on the aircraft carrier, which is based in Everett, Washington, but is stopping in San Diego first.

Bush will leave the carrier before it berths at North Island Friday. The ship will return to Everett on May 6.

The S-3B Viking, in service with the Navy since 1974, has logged more than 1.6 million flying hours, with an accident rate of 2.6 mishaps every 100,000 flight hours. The accident rate for a carrier's planes was even lower -- 1.89 per 100,000 flight hours (1990).

A Viking slid off the deck of the USS Constellation on April 1; the plane's two pilots were quickly rescued and the cause of the accident -- an unspecified malfunction, the Navy said -- is under investigation.

The versatile plane, originally an anti-submarine craft, performs a wide range of targeting and surveillance functions -- including tankering for mid-flight refueling -- for Navy carrier groups. Some are cleared to carry AGM-84D Harpoon and AGM-65F Maverick missiles; the Navy plans to install the capability in all its S-3B Vikings.

The S-3B Viking's participation in the Iraq war marked two firsts for the 30-year old plane, the Navy said -- the first time it was sent on an overland strike and the first time it had fired a laser-guided missile in combat.

The Lincoln's flight deck spans 4.5 acres, and the ship can power enough electricity for 100,000 homes. Among the aircraft aboard the carrier is the F/A-18E Super Hornet, the Navy's sophisticated strike fighter.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...arrier.landing

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But, back to the point, Mary said "well its not as bad as wearing a flight suit on an aircraft carrier when you've never flown a jet," which indicates she thought W had "never flown a jet," which is untrue.

I get that W flew outdated aircraft and that his bravada on this recent aircraft landing was mostly loathsome, but the fact that he was a fighter pilot does not obviate the latter two points. It kind of amazes me that people seem to think that by admitting W was a fighter pilot, they are somehow lending him credibility or liking him in some way. I do not see it that way. But, to each their own