Police: Man shot 'not connected' to bombings

[bretonbanquet]

I think a couple of things need to be straightened out here. The police had a building under surveillance which they suspected was connected to the bombings in London. This building contained five apartments. Menezes walked out of the building and the police suspected him because of his bulky jacket and allegedly there were wires protruding from his pockets etc. They did not apparently know who Menezes was, nor that he was an electrician.

They didn't challenge him then, but they called for armed police support and followed him. Menezes boarded a bus and the police tailed him in a car. When the bus stopped three miles later outside Stockwell tube station and Menezes got off, a number of armed policemen dressed in jeans and T-shirts ran down the street after him. He freaked and ran into the station, presumably where he was going anyway. There seems to be some doubt whether or not the police informed him of who they were. He vaulted the ticket barriers, ran down the escalator and on to the platform, pursued by the police. A train was waiting, doors open - Menezes half-jumped, half-fell on to the train, whereupon the policemen boarded the train and shot Menezes five times in the head.

The problem people are having with the police is that their intelligence was wrong - they had no idea who the guy actually was, he was just in the wrong building at the wrong time. The police say they allowed Menezes to board the bus in case he led them to other terrorists. This prompts the reasonable argument that he could have easily blown up the bus, unchallenged by the police. When Menezes got off the bus and entered the tube station, suddenly the police decide he's going to blow something up and they kill him. Also, Menezes could have easily activated any bomb he might have been carrying as soon as he knew he had been discovered - he could have blown up the ticket hall, the platform, anything - the police didn't stop to wonder why Menezes hadn't already activated the bomb. They seem to have been prepared to kill someone based on the basis of suspicion in the absence of any hard facts.

Stockwell isn't a very pleasant area, I lived there for a year in 2002-2003 and twice in my own street I came upon people who had just been mugged, one a pregnant woman threatened at gunpoint two days before Christmas. Guns are not commonplace, but not rare, and violence is not particularly unusual. When faced with a few guys running down the street at you waving guns, you might run. Another point is that Menezes had outstayed his visa and may have run because he thought he had been found out. Of course the police didn't know any of this, because they had no idea who he was. Menezes spoke good English and had told his family that he had been stopped by the police a few times - he had always answered their questions and been allowed on his way, his relatives said.

Another aspect people are drawing attention to is that Menezes was dark-skinned - had he been blond, would he have been suspected? The police procedure was at best unprofessional. Having said that, I have some sympathy for the guys who pulled the trigger, because they were only acting on orders - they had been told the suspect was a danger to the public and for all they knew they were about to be blown up. On the other hand, shooting someone five times in the head is certainly a little excessive.

I don't think it was any kind of hit, just a screw-up. They suspected him without any real evidence and leant on that flimsy suspicion while they killed him - on that evidence they could be shooting any number of tanned guys wearing bulky jackets who walk out of or past the wrong building.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

I think a couple of things need to be straightened out here. The police had a building under surveillance which they suspected was connected to the bombings in London. This building contained five apartments. Menezes walked out of the building and the police suspected him because of his bulky jacket and allegedly there were wires protruding from his pockets etc. They did not apparently know who Menezes was, nor that he was an electrician.

They didn't challenge him then, but they called for armed police support and followed him. Menezes boarded a bus and the police tailed him in a car. When the bus stopped three miles later outside Stockwell tube station and Menezes got off, a number of armed policemen dressed in jeans and T-shirts ran down the street after him. He freaked and ran into the station, presumably where he was going anyway. There seems to be some doubt whether or not the police informed him of who they were. He vaulted the ticket barriers, ran down the escalator and on to the platform, pursued by the police. A train was waiting, doors open - Menezes half-jumped, half-fell on to the train, whereupon the policemen boarded the train and shot Menezes five times in the head.

The problem people are having with the police is that their intelligence was wrong - they had no idea who the guy actually was, he was just in the wrong building at the wrong time. The police say they allowed Menezes to board the bus in case he led them to other terrorists. This prompts the reasonable argument that he could have easily blown up the bus, unchallenged by the police. When Menezes got off the bus and entered the tube station, suddenly the police decide he's going to blow something up and they kill him. Also, Menezes could have easily activated any bomb he might have been carrying as soon as he knew he had been discovered - he could have blown up the ticket hall, the platform, anything - the police didn't stop to wonder why Menezes hadn't already activated the bomb. They seem to have been prepared to kill someone based on the basis of suspicion in the absence of any hard facts.

Stockwell isn't a very pleasant area, I lived there for a year in 2002-2003 and twice in my own street I came upon people who had just been mugged, one a pregnant woman threatened at gunpoint two days before Christmas. Guns are not commonplace, but not rare, and violence is not particularly unusual. When faced with a few guys running down the street at you waving guns, you might run. Another point is that Menezes had outstayed his visa and may have run because he thought he had been found out. Of course the police didn't know any of this, because they had no idea who he was. Menezes spoke good English and had told his family that he had been stopped by the police a few times - he had always answered their questions and been allowed on his way, his relatives said.

Another aspect people are drawing attention to is that Menezes was dark-skinned - had he been blond, would he have been suspected? The police procedure was at best unprofessional. Having said that, I have some sympathy for the guys who pulled the trigger, because they were only acting on orders - they had been told the suspect was a danger to the public and for all they knew they were about to be blown up. On the other hand, shooting someone five times in the head is certainly a little excessive.

I don't think it was any kind of hit, just a screw-up. They suspected him without any real evidence and leant on that flimsy suspicion while they killed him - on that evidence they could be shooting any number of tanned guys wearing bulky jackets who walk out of or past the wrong building.

Well, said and I agree.

However, I think that he lived in that building, had wires sticking out of his jacket, and he vaulted the turnstyle and headed straight for a train doomed him. Had he not done that, he might still be alive. I think this was just a horrible and tragic mistake.

Having said that, I would hate to be a cop and faced with this decision. I mean could imagine having that weight on your shoulders and then, when you think you have just saved countless people by stopping a man from a suspect building, acting strangely, and with wires sticking out of his coat (I mean the odds there ) , who was running toward an unpreviously bombed train - you realize you screwed up and in hindsight, which is 20/20, you realize that maybe a little more research or prudence could have prevented this death, which is now on your hands and even though you were trying to do the right thing in a city somewhat in a panic or at least weary of death by terrorists. That has got to be horrible for those cops. But, I suppose at least they are not dead because of their error, unlike this poor guy.

Also, I think (speculate) they were unsure about him when he got on the bus. But, I think once he started jumping obstacles and toward a train, they erred (literally) on the side of caution, which if this guy had had a bmob, none of us would be questioning this.

The whole thing is a mess and it horrifies me that it happened.

[madformac]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Again, I heard they were plain clothes and that only five officers were in close pursuit. If you didn't speak English and a bunch of people with guns were chasing after you screaming, what might you do?

You stop and put your hands up... You are in a public area with security cameras and lots of bystanders around. If they were armed muggers I would stop and let them take what they wanted.. I've not seen anybody outrun a 633mph bullet yet.. After reading some of the latest reports a team of exactly five armed men and the nature of the killings does suggest SAS rather than Police officers here I feel.

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

True. But this is your first go round with "Al CIAda", no?

22nd regiment special air services have engaged Al Qaeda in Afganistan for sure, possibly Iraq and most probably Pakistan already.. As for first round, everywhere Bush's pack of bloodhounds have gone after them, we have gone in too due to Blair's tongue so far up W's ass he has to say yes..

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Well, we still can't find Bin Laden and what's worse is no one seems to care.

I totally believe the intelligence agenices know exactly where he is but to capture him is politically and religously not a good idea at this time.. I believe he is a valuable US asset left on the run.

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Don't be fooled by the propagandist term "insurgent." Certainly they are being funded by someone. But let me ask you this. If your country was attacked ( and it was, some sixty plus years ago) don't you think your countrymen would somehow fight back? They certainly would and did. Back in those days, it was called "the resistance." That's what you're seeing in Iraq now. Can you blame them? We have no valid reason to be there. That's already been established.

You are correct, we have no valid reason to be there other than bolstering the US economy with weapons development, job creation, rebuilding and construction involving US and "allied" companies.. Oh yes, and oil too..

Can I blame the "insurgents?" for attacking US and UK targets no I can't... I can however blame them for suiciide bombing innocent Iraqis and children yes, absolutely.. I can also blame them for following a regime of fear and murder that has ended in the deaths of millions over many years..

[bretonbanquet]

Strand - Yes, I agree - especially that if this guy had turned out to be loaded with explosives, those cops would have got medals. One newspaper already jumped on that bandwagon - their headline was "1 down, 3 to go" in reference to the 4 would-be bombers from last week. Whoops...

Certainly running from the cops doomed him - but I guess he was working on instinct as much as the cops were - it's a real tragedy. What will be interesting is how the police will deal with this kind of thing next time. And it certainly shows how jumpy the city is at the moment

[paleshadow]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

. . . and they would have all blown up with him assuming he had ready access to the trigger device, which is an assumption they would have to make I mean if law enforcement has the chance to shoot in the head a suicide bomber before their bomb goes off and kills lots of people, they are going to shoot them in the head - though the thought of that is horrifying to me.

I cannot believe people are missing that point. I get that this guy was wrongly suspected, but the police thought he was wearing a bomb and getting on a train in a city that recently has had several bombs expode on trains and this guy lived in the same building as the suspects and he was acting in an erradict manner. I hate that this happened to this guy - I hate it a lot. But, I think the police deserve some slack here. I think the problem is people do not believe the police about this guy being a suspect and think instead that the London police performed some sort of hit. I have no comment on the latter theory.

I agree. I would also venture to guess if this situation turned out differently, say if the man did have a bomb and instead of being shot they attempted to arrest him and the bomb was detinated killing many innocent people, some of the same individuals who criticized the police for shooting him may be criticizing them for not shooting him. Especially if they knew someone who was killed in the blast. I also think people would think differently if they were one of the officers in that situation. Remember too, that this incident came right on the heels of the previous bombings.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by madformac

You stop and put your hands up... You are in a public area with security cameras and lots of bystanders around. If they were armed muggers I would stop and let them take what they wanted.. I've not seen anybody outrun a 633mph bullet yet..

Not sure I agree there - no-one knows what they'd do until they're in that situation. One thing's for sure, you don't stop to think. If your instinct says run, you run - it's too easy to say what you'd do when you're sitting at home talking about it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Strand - Yes, I agree - especially that if this guy had turned out to be loaded with explosives, those cops would have got medals. One newspaper already jumped on that bandwagon - their headline was "1 down, 3 to go" in reference to the 4 would-be bombers from last week. Whoops...

Certainly running from the cops doomed him - but I guess he was working on instinct as much as the cops were - it's a real tragedy. What will be interesting is how the police will deal with this kind of thing next time. And it certainly shows how jumpy the city is at the moment

Let's hope next time they get their facts and shiitte together and prevent a needless death like this one

[madformac]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Strand - Yes, I agree - especially that if this guy had turned out to be loaded with explosives, those cops would have got medals. One newspaper already jumped on that bandwagon - their headline was "1 down, 3 to go" in reference to the 4 would-be bombers from last week. Whoops...

Certainly running from the cops doomed him - but I guess he was working on instinct as much as the cops were - it's a real tragedy. What will be interesting is how the police will deal with this kind of thing next time. And it certainly shows how jumpy the city is at the moment

Once he ran his fate was sealed.. It was an indication of (wrongly) guilt to the officers and he was not going to be allowed onto that train no matter what.

I agree too that he could have had explosives and if they were unsure, then he ran, they really had no choice but to execute him. There was a good chance of him being a bomber based on what they had seen as he left the flat. And to answer your question, if they were placed in the same situation again, I believe they would do it again... You cannot take any chances in these kinds of situations, especially when faced with somebody running away.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Let's hope next time they get their facts and shiitte together and prevent a needless death like this one

Absolutely. Intelligence is the key, and it's got to be strong if you're going to go around shooting suspects.

[madformac]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Let's hope next time they get their facts and shiitte together and prevent a needless death like this one

UK newspapers are the worst and most vicious in the world. I won't and don't buy them purely because 90% is bull****, the other 10% is just crap..

Yes it was a needless, but I fear unavoidable death.. The fact he was on an out of date visa and was an illegal alien makes it more tragic. He shouldn't have been in the situation in the first place.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by madformac

UK newspapers are the worst and most vicious in the world. I won't and don't buy them purely because 90% is bull****, the other 10% is just crap..

Yes it was a needless, but I fear unavoidable death.. The fact he was on an out of date visa and was an illegal alien makes it more tragic. He shouldn't have been in the situation in the first place.

Couldn't agree more - I don't buy newspapers either - the amount of misinformation in there is scary. I stick to radio and TV.

One thing that bothered me is that when the news came out that Menezes was in the UK illegally, it somehow justified his killing in some people's eyes - almost as if, 'well, he must have been up to something if he was here illegally' - disgusting attitude.

[madformac]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Couldn't agree more - I don't buy newspapers either - the amount of misinformation in there is scary. I stick to radio and TV.

One thing that bothered me is that when the news came out that Menezes was in the UK illegally, it somehow justified his killing in some people's eyes - almost as if, 'well, he must have been up to something if he was here illegally' - disgusting attitude.

Yep, I encountered that today... I spoke to somebody in the street that said it was, quote "his fault because he shouldn't be in the f**king country"

He was at fault for running, but then it's the "fight or flight reaction" of instinct to a degree, although it was to me very odd to run..

I think it's an unacceptable reaction to say the situation occured because he was here on a lapsed visa, it's even more tragic because of that but I feel no doubt the tabloids will use this as a reason to attack the government on the immigration issue and get more print out of the story..

I must add, I do feel the killing, however tragic, was justified under the reason of a clear threat to the security of the tube passengers and the suspects reaction to the situation. I fully stand by the decision to take hard arrests when there is sufficient, and I do believe it was sufficient in the timescale they had, evidence of a possible deadly outcome.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by madformac

Yep, I encountered that today... I spoke to somebody in the street that said it was, quote "his fault because he shouldn't be in the f**king country"

He was at fault for running, but then it's the "fight or flight reaction" of instinct to a degree, although it was to me very odd to run..

I think it's an unacceptable reaction to say the situation occured because he was here on a lapsed visa, it's even more tragic because of that but I feel no doubt the tabloids will use this as a reason to attack the government on the immigration issue and get more print out of the story..

Yes, some people, especially the media, will always turn an issue into something it's not just to suit themselves. I'm no fan of the government, but to turn this incident into an attack on some unconnected point of government policy would be sick, not to mention insulting to the rest of us.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

They know how to shoot people in the chest and avoid killing them every time?

Police academies teach you to shoot to STOP. And never to shoot to wound. They reference cases of perps being intentionally wounded(shot to wound only) in a police shooting, and the perp receiving a settlement, or payments for life, sometimes even paid by the officer. Chest area is what they teach you to shoot. So, a STOP shot is usually a lethal one.

The lesson for everyone in this is: when the police order you to stop, you stop, period.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Yes, some people, especially the media, will always turn an issue into something it's not just to suit themselves. I'm no fan of the government, but to turn this incident into an attack on some unconnected point of government policy would be sick, not to mention insulting to the rest of us.

LOL - as a Yank, I find the British Papers, esp. The London Daily and a few in Cardiff (Globe, etc. ) - to be sooooo pithy that I just laugh out loud reading them. A lot of that is the diff. way we use the English lang. and also the hard slant of them - and they just fire away

The two worst in the world - but still hysterical are Le Monde and Le Figaro.

Ahhhhhh - the world of print