London's Mayor Speaks Out

[strandinthewind]

and he is not scared to call a spade a spade

_______________________________________________________________________

London mayor: West fueled terror

LONDON, England (CNN) -- London Mayor Ken Livingstone has said that Western "double standards" in the Middle East have contributed to the growth of Islamic extremism and terrorist groups such as al Qaeda.

Livingstone told BBC radio on Wednesday that Western intervention in the Middle East since the end of World War I had been motivated by a desire to control the flow of oil.

While condemning suicide bombings, Livingstone indicated that he recognized the conditions that had led Palestinians to take that route in Israel.

"Under foreign occupation and denied a right to vote, denied the right to run your own affairs ... I suspect that if it had happened here in England we would have produced a lot of suicide bombers ourselves," said Livingstone.

"But I don't just denounce suicide bombers. I denounce those governments which use indiscriminate slaughter to advance their foreign policy."

But Livingstone's comments were rejected by a spokesman for British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

"The Prime Minister and Ken Livingstone have different views of the world and that remains the case," the Downing Street spokesman said.

"Equally, however, we recognize that Ken Livingstone has provided, as an elected official in London, a lead to the people of London at this tragic time -- at the same time as he expresses views which we fundamentally disagree with."

Blair told lawmakers on Wednesday that he was considering calling a global conference to discuss ways of tackling Islamic extremism following the July 7 London bombings which killed 56 people and injured hundreds more.

"We are looking at the possibility of holding a conference which would bring together some of the main countries who are ... closely involved in these issues ... to try to take concerted action right across the world to root out this kind of extremist teaching," Blair said.

After meeting Muslim leaders on Tuesday, Blair said that extremism was an "evil ideology" that needed to be confronted "by the force of reason." (Full Story)

He also told lawmakers his government was moving in the "right direction" to combat the threat of further attacks and pledged to work with opposition leader Michael Howard to introduce new anti-terror legislation.

In a briefing before parliament, Home Secretary Charles Clarke outlined three new criminal offenses at the heart of those measures.

One new provision would be to make the indirect incitement of terrorism an offense.

Another proposed offense would be acts considered preparatory to terrorism. That would enable security authorities to intervene at an earlier stage to protect the public.

A third would apply a broader definition applied to the giving and receiving of terrorist training.

CNN's European Political Editor Robin Oakley said lawmakers would consider the legislation on their return from summer recess in October and could pass the measures by December.

Speaking later to members of the London Assembly, Livingstone praised Londoners' resilience and solidarity in the aftermath of the bomb attacks.

He said the city would never concede to the threat of terrorism.

"London's communities will continue to stand together in condemnation of anyone who attacks the city," said Livingstone.

He said the city's Underground system would likely be disrupted for some time to come. Three of the four bombings occurred on tube trains.

One of the bombed carriages was lifted out of Edgware Road station Tuesday and taken to an undisclosed location for further forensic examination.

Rail operators say the station will probably remain closed for another two weeks.

Transport police said on Wednesday that sniffer dogs had been deployed on the Underground network for the first time.

"They operate just like dogs who search for drugs except they have been trained to sniff our explosives," a police spokesman told the UK's Press Association.

"They have already started patrolling the Tube with their handlers and they will carry on indefinitely."

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe...cks/index.html

[gldstwmn]

I don't have a lot of time to go into this right now but he is more right on with that statement than I think he even knows.

[tynan88]

Ken Livingstone seems like a classy leader. I remember seeing him hold a media conference on a train on the Monday after the attack which I thought was a great display, encouraging people to catch the train to work.

I totally agree too, you have to put yourself in their shoes a bit, but the way he talks sometimes, he should be wary not be charged under the new english laws they are thinking of introducing!

[irishgrl]

I abohor the fact we are so dependent upon Middle Eastern Oil, however, the Sunnis especially have profited GREATLY by our oil consumption. Frankly, since their society has NO other commodity to offer in trade on the world's stage, they NEED our dollars. As for the dichotomy between the haves and have-nots in that part of the world, that is more the fault of THEIR OWN societal makeup and not ours. The house of Saud was powerful long before petrodollars entered the picture. Im sorry but they just cant keep blaming all their troubles on the "evil west."

I also disagree with Livingstone in that I believe it really wouldnt matter to the extremists if we left their countries altogether, (or met any of their other demands) they would STILL find some reason to continue their terror tactics because their ULTIMATE aim is eradication of any who arent followers of Islam. They absolutely HATE the Jews and will NOT rest until there is NO Israel. This hatred goes all the way back to the story of Jacob (the son of Isaac's wife Sarai, and Father of the Jewish line) and Esau (the son of Sarai's handmaiden and the Father of the Arab line). On his deathbed, Isaac blessed Jacob (thinking he was Esau) and gave him control over his flocks, goods, lands as well as the right to inherit the power of patriarch over the Jews (Jacob fathered the 12 Tribes of Israel) and to receive the the blessing of God. The Arabs have raged ever since. Their hatred of Christians stems primarily from the Crusades and the fact that after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they have been unable to keep pace with the Western World's march of technology etc. They resent everything about Western civilization, and we are ALL infidels in the minds of these extremists.

I personally believe that this fomenting hatred will eventually engulf the world in a final, horrendous struggle. I pray I am wrong, but this is what I see coming. There is hope however if the Moderate Muslims, the ones who say Islam is about PEACE, will step up and take a stand against these extremists. In truth, I believe they are the only ones who CAN make a difference. Until they face the UGLY side of their religion (as Christians have had to do) the extremists will wreak havoc unchecked.

note: Strand quoted me below before I realized I had named some of the principles incorrectly. For that, my apologies, and I believe the info in the current post is correct, and I had the essential facts correct in any event.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

I abohor the fact we are so dependent upon Middle Eastern Oil, however, the Sunnis especially have profited GREATLY by our oil consumption. Frankly, since their society has NO other commodity to offer in trade on the world's stage, they NEED our dollars. As for the dichotomy between the haves and have-nots in that part of the world, that is more the fault of THEIR OWN societal makeup and not ours. The house of Saud was powerful long before petrodollars entered the picture. Im sorry but they just cant keep blaming all their troubles on the "evil west."

I also disagree with Livingstone in that I believe it really wouldnt matter to the extremists if we left their countries altogether, (or met any of their other demands) they would STILL find some reason to continue their terror tactics because their ULTIMATE aim is eradication of any who arent followers of Islam. They absolutely HATE the Jews and will NOT rest until there is NO Israel. This hatred goes all the way back to the story of Isaac (the son of Abrahams wife Sarah, and Father of the Jewish line) and Esau (the son of Sarah's handmaiden and the Father of the Arab line). On his deathbed, Abraham blessed Isaac (thinking he was Esau) and gave him control over his flocks, goods, lands as well as the right to inherit the power of patriarch over the Jews (Isaac fathered the 12 Tribes of Israel) and to receive the the blessing of God. The Arabs have raged ever since. Their hatred of Christians stems primarily from the Crusades and the fact that after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they have been unable to keep pace with the Western World's march of technology etc. They resent everything about Western civilization, and we are ALL infidels in the minds of these extremists.

I personally believe that this fomenting hatred will eventually engulf the world in a final, horrendous struggle. I pray I am wrong, but this is what I see coming.

The only other commodity they have is the Holy Land, and much of what is going on over there has to do with that. As for "They absolutely HATE the Jews and will NOT rest until there is NO Israel" - can you blame them - I mean Israel is not exactly an innocent in all of this.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

The only other commodity they have is the Holy Land, and much of what is going on over there has to do with that. As for "They absolutely HATE the Jews and will NOT rest until there is NO Israel" - can you blame them - I mean Israel is not exactly an innocent in all of this.

Israel's "crime" is its mere existence (sp?) and the fact that they beat Syria and Egypt to the punch in the 6 days war and decimated the opposing forces before they had a chance to do that to Israel. Again, the hatred is several thousand years old and predates the modern Nation of Israel. Btw, Israel (or the Jews) has a historic claim to its place as the prophesied "promised land" and Arabs have done all they could to prevent any such occupation by Jews and were successful for quite a lengthy time as a result of the Ottoman Empire's control. The fact that Israel was allowed to form at ALL (nevermind the fact that millions of Jews had no other place to go after leaving Germany, Russia, Spain etc) has been a THORN in the Arab side...

I was going to mention the Holy Land and Muslim control of 99% of the Holy places...that concerns me greatly. I can see the day when Christians and Jews alike might be forbidden access to our Holy places....

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

Israel's crime is forcing an entire people to live under conditions that are violations of human rights as defined by the UN.

I assert though perhaps the most significant, that is just one of many.

In the end, I am torn between hating Israel and understanding their desire to fight for what has been "their" land for the last few decades. I just wish they could get along with the Muslims - but I suspect that will never happen.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by Lux

Israel's crime is forcing an entire people to live under conditions that are violations of human rights as defined by the UN.

I might remind you that the Jews were subjected to MUCH worse during WWII (not to mention historically!)and there was a general consensus among the Free Nations that they deserved a place to live in their own HOMELAND. Personally, considering the fact that they have TRIED to co-exist peacefully in the midst of CONSTANT terrorism (that the world is only NOW getting a taste of) I dont feel one BIT sorry for the Palestinians. In fact, I am amazed at Israel's restraint under the circumstances.

Btw, the UN is evil, and I for one believe that the US should withdraw and let it fall flat on its freakin face. THAT for your precious UN *insert line of barfing smilies here*

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

I might remind you that the Jews were subjected to MUCH worse during WWII (not to mention historically!)and there was a general consensus among the Free Nations that they deserved a place to live in their own HOMELAND. Personally, considering the fact that they have TRIED to co-exist peacefully in the midst of CONSTANT terrorism (that the world is only NOW getting a taste of) I dont feel one BIT sorry for the Palestinians. In fact, I am amazed at Israel's restraint under the circumstances.

Btw, the UN is evil, and I for one believe that the US should withdraw and let it fall flat on its freakin face. THAT for your precious UN *insert line of barfing smilies here*

Israel tried so hard that it gained even more land that did not belong to it

Also, so that justifies taking someone else's property and giving it to someone else. How would you feel if someone did that to you. I think you'd be pissed and justifiably so. Then, these usupers put you in a concentration camp, which ironically is what (in a far severer form) they were avoiding in the first place. I mean to hear you say it, the Israeli's are justified in killing people who mostly throw rocks at them, suicide bombers aside.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Israel tried so hard that it gained even more land that did not belong to it

Also, so that justifies taking someone else's property and giving it to someone else. How would you feel if someone did that to you. I think you'd be pissed and justifiably so. Then, these usupers put you in a concentration camp, which ironically is what (in a far severer form) they were avoiding in the first place. I mean to hear you say it, the Israeli's are justified in killing people who mostly throw rocks at them, suicide bombers aside.

a) Israel gained land as the result of a WAR. Again, several Arab nations had declared war on Israel and would have removed them by force had Israel not trumped them by destroying the opposing air forces.

b) Britain was the power that occupied that part of the world at that time and was the architect of the land divide that created Israel/Palestine

c) contrary to what you assert, suicide bombers are not an *aside*, they are a constant reality, and they dont care WHO their victims are, whether women or children or whatever.

Israel didnt START this conflict but you BETCHA I support their actions against terrorists. As for Palestine, Israel has tried to offer the land back but the reality is, no amount of land offered will be enough to the Arabs unless it is ALL of the land the Jews now occupy. In the Arab world, there is NO ROOM for ANY Jew, plain and simple. Therefore, there will never be peace there.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

a) Israel gained land as the result of a WAR. Again, several Arab nations had declared war on Israel and would have removed them by force had Israel not trumped them by destroying the opposing air forces.

b) Britain was the power that occupied that part of the world at that time and was the architect of the land divide that created Israel/Palestine

Funny - I did not know that the Arabs were fighting Britian in WWII Come on - give me a break, you know better than to assert that tripe. The bottom line is no nation wanted them mostly because they were Jewish and the big wigs got togather and said, let's screw the Arabs out of some land like we have been doing for centuries. Then, people act surprised when the people whose land was stolen get angry

Originally Posted by irishgrl

c) contrary to what you assert, suicide bombers are not an *aside*, they are a constant reality, and they dont care WHO their victims are, whether women or children or whatever.

The suicide bombers are part of an organized force that deserves to dealt with stearnly. i was not talking about them and you know it. I was talking about the kids on the street that throw rocks at the Israeli soldiers who then shoot those kids in the head with the weapons the US provides them.

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Israel didnt START this conflict but you BETCHA I support their actions against terrorists. As for Palestine, Israel has tried to offer the land back but the reality is, no amount of land offered will be enough to the Arabs unless it is ALL of the land the Jews now occupy. In the Arab world, there is NO ROOM for ANY Jew, plain and simple. Therefore, there will never be peace there.

Then you must also call Israel a terrorist state because they do the same thing. Interestingly and to be fair, so does the US. Again, Israel puts people in camps, but I guess that is okay with you.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Funny - I did not know that the Arabs were fighting Britian in WWII Come on - give me a break, you know better than to assert that tripe. The bottom line is no nation wanted them mostly because they were Jewish and the big wigs got togather and said, let's screw the Arabs out of some land like we have been doing for centuries. Then, people act surprised when the people whose land was stolen get angry

The suicide bombers are part of an organized force that deserves to dealt with stearnly. i was not talking about them and you know it. I was talking about the kids on the street that throw rocks at the Israeli soldiers who then shoot those kids in the head with the weapons the US provides them.

Then you must also call Israel a terrorist state because they do the same thing. Interestingly and to be fair, so does the US. Again, Israel puts people in camps, but I guess that is okay with you.

No, Britain wasnt fighting the Arabs in WWII, dont be snide. That area has always been of strategic importance because of the OIL, which was needed for planes and vehicles during the war effort. Britain had units all over that part of the world, especially Africa. Britain occupied and controlled quite a lot of land as you well know And, it was NOT to screw the Arabs out of anything but rather to carve out for the Jews a place in their OWN HOMELAND that dictated the location. PUH LEEZ.

as for your assertion that Israeli soldiers shoot kids who throw rocks, I dont believe that is right, and I dont support that.

Im telling you that the Jews have (IMO) a more legitimate claim to that part of the middle east than the Arabs do, historically speaking. The Arabs think it is theirs because they captured it from the Israelites and controlled it during the long span of the Ottoman Empire. The Israelites returned the favor during the 6 days war. I want to be very clear, I believe Israel has the right to exist and they also have a right to defend themselves.

As for the camps.......do you honestly think Jews would even get THAT good of treatment from the Palestinians? The short answer is NO. As far as the Arabs are concerned, the only good Jew is a DEAD Jew, and they wouldnt even be lucky enough to live in a camp.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by Lux

No past treatment of the Jewish people gives them the right to hand out injustices to the Palestinian people. That notion is completely absurd. Anyway, no point in arguing, we won't solve any fueds and it seems like a racist discussion to argue that these particular people deserve this. No human being deserves to live the way the Palestinians are forced to, no matter what race, with history as no justification.

I submit that there are plenty of Jews/Israelis who can assure you that the abuses they suffer are still happening today, therefore your assertion regarding "past treatment" is inaccurate, and naive. I guarantee you, if the Arab/Jew roles were reversed, the Jews wouldnt even have the luxury of a "camp" to live in. Arafat has said the Palestinians would NEVER recognize a Jewish state and they teach their children that Israel doesnt exist, and foment hatred in the classrooms akin to the sort of brainwashing that goes on in the Madrassas. Those are the young people that volunteer to be suicide bombers, and families send their children to be schooled in this type of hatred and consider it an honor when their child has blown up innocents. All in all, my sympathies lie with Israel, they are a country under seige and have been since their inception.

Further, I brought up the historical aspect to give you a perspective regarding the dynamics behind the conflict between Arab and Jew, Go back and RE-READ my posts. On second thought--dont. you keep missing the point anyway.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

No past treatment of the Jewish people gives them the right to hand out injustices to the Palestinian people. That notion is completely absurd. Anyway, no point in arguing, we won't solve any fueds and it seems like a racist discussion to argue that these particular people deserve this. No human being deserves to live the way the Palestinians are forced to, no matter what race, with history as no justification.

I love it when we agree - though it usually is fleeting

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

I submit that there are plenty of Jews/Israelis who can assure you that the abuses they suffer are still happening today, therefore your assertion regarding "past treatment" is inaccurate, and naive. I guarantee you, if the Arab/Jew roles were reversed, the Jews wouldnt even have the luxury of a "camp" to live in. Arafat has said the Palestinians would NEVER recognize a Jewish state and they teach their children that Israel doesnt exist, and foment hatred in the classrooms akin to the sort of brainwashing that goes on in the Madrassas. Those are the young people that volunteer to be suicide bombers, and families send their children to be schooled in this type of hatred and consider it an honor when their child has blown up innocents. All in all, my sympathies lie with Israel, they are a country under seige and have been since their inception.

Further, I brought up the historical aspect to give you a perspective regarding the dynamics behind the conflict between Arab and Jew, Go back and RE-READ my posts. On second thought--dont. you keep missing the point anyway.

They took their property and gave it to people on boats from Europe. I cannot believe you think that was okay.