The Lengths Some People Will Go To . . . .

[wondergirl9847]

On a somewhat related note, but not really. My great aunt lived in a nursing facility for the last few years of her life and wasn't treated that great. She had brittle bones and had to be taken care of VERY carefully. Someone stole her pillows that my mom made for her.

I don't understand how people have the conjones to be so disgusting.

[gldstwmn]

This guy should get thousands of hours of community service where has has to work with special needs children Bastard.

[littlecricket2]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

This guy should get thousands of hours of community service where has has to work with special needs children Bastard.

Actually, if I were a parent or loved one of one of those special needs children that he had to work with as part of his punishment, I'd be like, "**** no, he's not coming near my kid."

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Ask George W. Bush...he's stolen TWO elections from the American people.

If there was indisputable proof that he did not win the majority of electoral votes, then he wouldnt be in office.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

If there was indisputable proof that he did not win the majority of electoral votes, then he wouldnt be in office.

I'm sorry but you're in denial. Or a Republican. It's okay though. I know a great Republican rehab program.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by littlecricket2

Actually, if I were a parent or loved one of one of those special needs children that he had to work with as part of his punishment, I'd be like, "**** no, he's not coming near my kid."

He would have to be vigorously supervised of course. If I were the judge I'd let him choose between going straight to jail or the thousands of hours of community service.
What are they charging him with?

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

I'm sorry but you're in denial. Or a Republican. It's okay though. I know a great Republican rehab program.

HAHA! I'm affiliated with none of the parties, actually. But I will say it again...if there was INDISPUTABLE proof that he did not win the election...people would have been all over that like white on rice and a paper plate in a snowstorm. That's not me condoning Bush's actions. I actually thought Kerry was going to win, but the majority of the American public voted Bush back into office. End of story.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

HAHA! I'm affiliated with none of the parties, actually. But I will say it again...if there was INDISPUTABLE proof that he did not win the election...people would have been all over that like white on rice and a paper plate in a snowstorm. That's not me condoning Bush's actions. I actually thought Kerry was going to win, but the majority of the American public voted Bush back into office. End of story.

Alright. We'll ease into this.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaind...561.xml&coll=2

Probe focuses on donation to GOP
Election official says he was offered $10,000
Saturday, July 16, 2005
Julie Carr Smyth
Plain Dealer Bureau
Columbus - A member of the Franklin County election board said Friday that prosecutors are investigating whether a GOP political consultant tried to bribe the board's director to buy voting equipment made by his client, Diebold Inc.

The director, Matthew Damschroder, has told prosecutors that the consultant, Pat Gallina, came to his office in early 2004, offering him $10,000.

"Pat Gallina came into my office at the Board of Elections and said, 'I'm here to give you $10,000. Who should I direct it to?' " Damschroder recalled. "I said, 'Certainly not to me. But I'm sure the Franklin County Republican Party would appreciate a voluntary donation. That was my first mistake."

The law prohibits Damschroder from accepting political contributions on county property. He said he took the check home and mailed it to the party, where he had just completed a stint as executive director.

Damschroder said Franklin County was in the process of selecting a new electronic voter registration system and that Diebold was not chosen.

Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O'Brien would not comment on his investigation.

Elections board member Michael Colley, a Republican, said the four-member board has met twice in executive session to discuss the meeting between Damschroder and Gallina, a former aide to Cleveland Mayor Ralph Perk.

"The crux of the issue is whether there was an attempt to bribe an official to influence the board in terms of voting-machine contractors," Colley said.

Gallina did not return calls, directly or through business associates, seeking comment.

Damschroder told prosecutor O'Brien of Gallina's visit after his testimony was sought in a civil suit filed by one of Diebold's competitors, Election Systems and Software.

ES&S charges in that suit that Secretary of State Ken Blackwell improperly favored Diebold in selecting electronic voting machines for use statewide. Political consultant Norman Cummings, a Blackwell campaign adviser, is scheduled to give a deposition shortly in that case.

Damschroder said Cummings' name came up in his office conversation with Gallina, who said he had met Cummings recently in the Washington, D.C., area. Gallina told him that he and Cummings agreed on the cut-rate price Diebold would charge the state for its machines, and that Gallina promised in return to give $50,000 to "Blackwell interests."

Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for Blackwell, called the claim "absolutely ridiculous," and that Cummings has not negotiated any part of the state's voting machine contracts.

During the same month that Gallina gave $10,000 to the Franklin County GOP, he gave another $10,000 to Blackwell's anti-tax group, Citizens for Tax Repeal, which was formed to repeal a penny-on-the-dollar sales tax hike approved in 2003 by the Ohio Legislature.

The check Gallina wrote to the group came through Celebrezze & Associates Inc., a company Gallina formed with former Ohio Attorney General Tony Celebrezze, a Democrat, in 2002. Celebrezze died in July 2002. The check to the Franklin County GOP was written from the account of ACG Group LLC, another joint venture of Gallina and Celebrezze.

A Diebold spokesman said Friday that the company had no involvement in either contribution.

Diebold executives had ceased contributing directly to political campaigns in October 2003, after the company president sparked an uproar by saying he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes" to secure President Bush's re-election.

Spokesman Mike Jacobsen said the firm pays Gallina - through Celebrezze & Associates - to work as a liaison on state and county government contracts.

"It's a separate company," he said. "Just because we contract with a lobbyist and they make a contribution doesn't mean, in any way, that we use them as some sort of political back door to curry political favor."

LoParo said his boss oversaw a selection process that was fair, thorough and open, and that Diebold was not shown any favoritism.

A vendor had already been picked in January 2004, when Gallina wrote his check to the anti-tax group, LoParo said, disproving any notion that it might have bought the company special treatment.

"I don't know what special deal has ever been gotten from our office," LoParo said. "We got them to agree to the lowest prices in the nation, then we forced them to take another $200 off their price after that."

He noted that Gallina has supported Blackwell politically since 1998, when he was state treasurer.

Gallina was the top assistant to Lottery Director Gerald Patronite in 1978, when the pair were charged with taking favors from firms and individuals seeking business with the lottery commission. The two were later cleared.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Alright. We'll ease into this.
.

Hearsay...hub-bub and paranoia. All in its attempt to try and discredit our elected officials. It happens with EVERY president.

[dudden22]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

If there was indisputable proof that he did not win the majority of electoral votes, then he wouldnt be in office.

There was proof. It was called the black vote, which was discarded.

[gldstwmn]

Democrats challenge Ohio vote, push back official certification
Thursday, January 6, 2005 Posted: 6:55 PM EST (2355 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush officially won a second term in the White House after electoral votes from all 50 states were counted Thursday during a joint session of Congress.

The normally perfunctory ceremony of counting and certifying Electoral College votes was delayed for about four hours as Democrats unsuccessfully challenged Ohio's votes for Bush.

Bush received 286 electoral votes, 16 more than the 270 he needed to win re-election. Sen. John Kerry, a Massachusetts Democrat, received 251 votes. One Democratic elector cast a vote not for Kerry but for former Sen. John Edwards, his vice presidential running mate.

In the vice presidential race, Vice President Dick Cheney received 286 electoral votes and Edwards received 252.

Alleging widespread "irregularities" on Election Day, a group of Democrats in Congress objected earlier Thursday to the counting of Ohio's 20 electoral votes.

The challenge was defeated 267-31 by the House and 74-1 by the Senate, clearing the way for the joint session to count the votes from the remaining states.

The move was not designed to overturn Bush's re-election, said Ohio Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones and California Sen. Barbara Boxer, who filed the objection.

The objecting Democrats, all of whom are House members except Boxer, said they wanted to draw attention to the need for aggressive election reform in the wake of what they said were widespread voter problems.

In a letter to congressional leaders Wednesday, members of the group said they would take the action because a new report by Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee found "numerous, serious election irregularities," particularly in Ohio, that led to "a significant disenfranchisement of voters."

"How can we possibly tell millions of Americans who registered to vote, who came to the polls in record numbers, particularly our young people ... to simply get over it and move on?" Tubbs Jones said at a press conference with Boxer.

Thursday's joint session of the House of Representatives and the Senate to count electoral votes is specified in the U.S. Constitution. Cheney, in his role as president of the Senate, presided over the session.

The results from each state, read in alphabetical order, were ticked through quickly until Ohio was called, and a clerk read the objection filed by Boxer and Tubbs Jones.

Then, as required by congressional rules in the event that at least one member of each house objects to the vote, Cheney ordered the lawmakers back to their respective chambers for two hours of debate on the merits of the challenge and to vote on it.

It was only the second such challenge since the current rules for counting electoral votes were established in 1877. The last was in 1969 and concerned a so-called "faithless elector," according to congressional researchers.

Four years ago, after the disputed election results in Florida, members of the Congressional Black Caucus attempted to block Florida's electoral votes from being counted.

In a scene recalled in Michael Moore's movie "Fahrenheit 9/11," lawmaker after lawmaker was gaveled down by Vice President Al Gore because no senator would support the objections, as the rules require.

House Democrats involved in this year's protest worked for weeks to enlist the support of a senator in their party, and Boxer agreed to join the effort Wednesday.

"This is my opening shot to be able to focus the light of truth on these terrible problems in the electoral system," Boxer told the joint press conference with Tubbs Jones.

"While we have men and women dying to bring democracy abroad, we've got to make it the best it can be here at home, and that's why I'm doing this."

Republicans dismissed the effort as a stunt, noting that specific allegations of voting problems in Ohio have been investigated by journalists and, the Republicans said, found to be untrue.

"But apparently, some Democrats only want to gripe about counts, recounts, and recounts of recounts," said Rep. Deborah Pryce, an Ohio Republican.

"So eager are they to abandon their job as public servants, they have cast themselves in the role of Michael Moore, concocting wild conspiracy theories to distract the American public."

White House press secretary Scott McClellan dismissed the challenge as "partisan politics."

"The election is behind us," he said. "The American people now expect their leaders in Washington to focus on the big priorities facing this country."

Kerry released a letter Wednesday saying he would not take part in the protest.

"Our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election," Kerry said.

Bush carried Ohio by more than 118,000 votes -- the Buckeye State win providing the margin of victory in the Electoral College race. The president received 286 to Kerry's 252 electoral votes.

"There are very troubling questions that have not yet been answered by Ohio election officials," the senator said.

"In the coming months I will present a national proposal to ensure transparency and accountability in our voting process."

Kerry was not on hand Thursday. He is in Iraq to thank U.S. troops for their service.

[gldstwmn]

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-30.htm

Hearings on Ohio Voting Put 2004 Election in Doubt
by Bob Fitrakis & Harvey Wasserman

Highly-charged, jam-packed hearings held here in Columbus have cast serious doubt on the true outcome of the presidential election.
On Saturday, November 13, and Monday, November 15, the Ohio Election Protection Coalition’s public hearings in Columbus solicited extensive sworn first-person testimony from 32 of Ohio voters, precinct judges, poll workers, legal observers, party challengers. An additional 66 people provided written affidavits of election irregularities. The unavoidable conclusion is that this year's election in Ohio was deeply flawed, that thousands of Ohioans were denied their right to vote, and that the ultimate vote count is very much in doubt.

Most importantly, the testimony has revealed a widespread and concerted effort on the part of Republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell to deny primarily African-American and young voters the right to cast their ballots within a reasonable time. By depriving precincts of adequate numbers of functioning voting machines, Blackwell created waits of three to eleven hours, driving tens of thousands of likely Democratic voters away from the polls and very likely affecting the outcome of the Ohio vote count, which in turn decided the national election.

On November 17, Blackwell wrote an op-ed piece for Rev. Sun Myung Moon's Washington Times, stating: “Every eligible voter who wanted to vote had the opportunity to vote. There was no widespread fraud, and there was no disenfranchisement. A half-million more Ohioans voted than ever before with fewer errors than four years ago, a sure sign on success by any measure,” Blackwell wrote. Moon's extreme right wing Unification Church has long-standing ties to the Bush Family and the Central Intelligence Agency.

Additional testimony also called into question the validity of the actual vote counts. There are thus serious doubts that the final official tally in Ohio, due December 1 to Blackwell’s office, will have any validity. Blackwell will certify the vote count on December 3.

While Blackwell supervised the Ohio vote he also served as co-chair of the Ohio Bush-Cheney re-election campaign, a clear conflict of interest that casts further doubt on how the Ohio election and vote counts have been conducted.

At the Columbus hearings, witness after witness under oath gave testimony to an election riddled with discrimination and disarray. Among them:

Werner Lange, a pastor from Youngstown, Ohio, who said in part:


“In precincts 1 A and 5 G, voting as Hillman Elementary School, which is a predominantly African American community, there were woefully insufficient number of voting machines in three precincts. I was told that the standard was to have one voting machine per 100 registered voters. Precinct A had 750 registered voters. Precinct G had 690. There should have been 14 voting machines at this site. There were only 6, three per precinct, less than 50 percent of the standard. This caused an enormous bottleneck among voters who had to wait a very, very long time to vote, many of them giving up in frustration and leaving. . . . I estimate, by the way, that an estimated loss of over 8,000 votes from the African American community in the City of Youngstown alone, with its 84 precincts, were lost due to insufficient voting machines, and that would translate to some 7,000 votes lost for John Kerry for President in Youngstown alone. . . .”

“Just yesterday I went to the Trumbull Board of Elections in northeast Ohio, I wanted to review their precinct logs so I could continue my investigation. This was denied. I was told by the Board of Elections official that I could not see them until after the official vote was given.”
Marion Brown, Columbus:


“I am here on behalf of a friend. My friend came to my home very upset while she was away standing four hours in the voting, her husband passed away. The funeral was on yesterday, November 13th, at 2:00. Perhaps had she not stood so long in the line, she may have been able to save her husband.”
Victoria Parks:


“In Pickaway County, oh, my goodness, in Pickaway County, I entered there, I was shown a table, 53 poll books were plunked down in front of my. I noticed there were no signature on file in any of the poll books, in any of the poll books, and furthermore, a minute later the director of the Board of Elections of Pickaway County came into the room and snatched the books away from me and said you cannot look at these books. I said are you aware that what you are doing is against the law? She said I have been on the phone with the Secretary of State and he has instructed me to take these books away and you cannot see them. I paraphrase very slightly here. She took them away. I was persona non grata. I did not want to risk arrest, and I left. . . . There were no signatures, and furthermore, the writing in the book seemed to have been written in the same hand, because that is a requirement.”
Boyd Mitchell, Columbus:


“What I saw was voter intimidation in the form of city employees that were sent in to stop illegal parking. Now, in Driving Park Rec Center there are less than 50 legal parking spots, and there were literally hundreds and hundreds of voters there, and I estimated at least 70 percent of the people were illegally parked in the grass around the perimeter of the Driving Park Rec Center, and two city employees drove up in a city truck and said that they had been sent there to stop illegal parking, and they went so far as to harass at least a couple of voters that I saw, and when they were talking to us, they were kind. But when they didn't realize we were overhearing them talking to voters, they were trying to keep people from parking where they were parking. They went so far as to set up some cones, trying to block people from getting into a grassy area...”

“I calculated that I maybe saw about 20 percent of the people that left Driving Park D and C, I personally saw and talked to about 20 percent of them as they left the poll between 12:30 and 8 p.m. And I saw 15 people who left because the line was too long. The lines inside were anywhere from 2 1/2 to 5 hours. Most everybody said 4 hours, and I saw at least 15 people who did not vote, and I heard a gentleman who was earlier making some mathematical calculations, well, if this is going on across town, and, you know, in a precinct where it was going so heavily for Kerry, and me only seeing 20 percent of the people coming out, I saw 15. We could just do the math and extrapolate that out into a huge number of people who might have voted had they had a chance.”
Joe Popich (entered into the record copies of the Perry County Board of Election poll book):


“There are a bunch of irregularities in this log book, but the most blatant irregularity would be the fact that there are 360 signatures in this book. There are 33 people who voted absentee ballot at this precinct, for a total of 393 votes that should be attributed to that precinct. However, the Board of Elections is attributing 96 more votes to that precinct than what this log book reflects.”
Derek Winsor, Columbus:


“Out of the six total voting machines that were at 14 C, three of them showed some type of malfunction that at one point or another during the three our so hours that we were waiting, and between my wife and me, we had asked poll workers individually if they could explain what was going on and what kind of reassurances they could give us that, for one machine in particular that the votes had already been posted on, that machine would be counted, and the response was just, oh, they will be counted. And how can you be sure of that? What storage mechanism do they use to ensure that the votes are stored, and, again, the response was just, well, they just are. And that was a bit of a concern here.”
Carol Shelton, presiding judge, precinct 25 B at the Linden Branch of the Columbus Metropolitan Library:


“The precinct is 95 to 99 percent black. . . . There were 1,500 persons on the precinct rolls. We received three machines. In my own precinct in Clintonville, 19E, we always received three machines for 700 to 730 voters. Voter turnout in my own precinct has reached as high as 70 percent while I worked there. I interviewed many voters in 25 B and asked how many machines they had had in the past. Everyone who had a recollection said five or six. I called to get more machines and ended up being connected with Matt Damschroder, the Director of the Board of Elections. After a real hassle -- and someone here has it on videotape, he sent me a fourth machine which did not dent the length of the line. Fewer than 700 voted, although the turnout at the beginning of the day would cause anyone to predict a turnout of over 80 percent. This was a clear case of voter suppression by making voting an impossibility for anyone who had to go to work or anyone who was stuck at home caring for children or the elderly while another family member voted.”
Allesondra Hernandez, Toledo:


“What I witnessed when I had gotten there about 9 A.M. was a young African American woman who had come out nearly in tears. She was a new voter, very first registered, very excited to vote, and she had said that she had been bounced around to three different polling places, and this one had just turned her down again. People were there to help her out, and I was concerned. I started asking around to everyone else, and they had informed me earlier that day that she was not the only one, but there were at least three others who had been bounced around. Also earlier that day the polls had opened an hour late, did not open until about 7:30 A.M. The polling machines were locked in the principal's office. Hundreds of people were turned away, were forced to leave the line because they needed to be at school, they needed to be at work, or they needed to take their children to school. The people there who were assisting did the best they could to take down numbers and take down names, but I am assuming that a majority of those people could not come back because of work and/or because of school, because they had shown up to vote, and that was the time that they could vote, and that is why they were there. Also along the same lines, they ran out of pencils for those ballots.”
Erin Deignan, Columbus:


“I was an official poll worker judge in precinct Columbus 25 F, at the East Linden School. We had between 1100 and 1200 people on the voter registry there. We had three voting machines. We did the math. I am sure lots of other people did too. With the five-minute limit, 13 hours the polls were open, three machines, that is 468 voters, that is less than half of the people we had on the registry. We stayed open three hours past 7:30 and got about 550 people through, but we had one Board of Elections worker come in the morning. We asked if he could bring more machines. He is said more machines had been delivered, but they didn't have any more. We had another Board of Elections official come later in the day, and he said that in Upper Arlington he had seen 12 machines.”
Matthew Segal, Gambier:


“In this past election, Kenyon College students and the residents of Gambier, Ohio, had to endure some of the most extenuating voting circumstances in the entire country. As many of you may already know, because they had it on national media attention, Kenyon students and the residents of Gambier had to stand in line up to 10 to 12 hours in the rain, through a hot gym, and crowded narrow lines, making it extremely uncomfortable. As a result of this, voters were disenfranchised, having class to attend to, sports commitments, and midterms for the next day, which they had to study for. Obviously, it is a disgrace that kids who are being perpetually told the importance of voting, could not vote because they had other commitments and had to be put up with a 12-hour line.”
Blackwell characterized Ohio’s Election Day as “tremendously successful” in the Washington Times. Several people at Saturday’s hearing said they’d like to hear Mr. Blackwell testify under oath, preferably under a criminal indictment.

Bob Fitrakis, Ph.D, J.D., a legal advisor for the Election Protection Coalition, convened and moderated the public hearings. Harvey Wasserman is Senior Editor of the Columbus Free Press and freepress.org. Audio from the hearings can be found at: www.theneighborhoodnetwork.org.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Democrats challenge Ohio vote, push back official certification
Thursday, January 6, 2005 Posted: 6:55 PM EST (2355 GMT)
.

Once again, the title says it...its just a pathetic feeble attempt to discredit our elected officials. The lefty-Dems didnt get their way, & they were pissed. At any rate, I wouldnt feel safe today is Kerry was in office. I dont feel "safe" here in America in general, but I feel safer with the current leadership.

[gldstwmn]

http://nashuaadvocate.blogspot.com/2...oking-gun.html

News: Election 2004: A Smoking Gun? Republican Operatives in Florida Made Sudden Decision to Avoid Poll Challenges; Were They Instructed to Hold Off?
By ADVOCATE STAFF

As the attention of progressive recount activists remains fixated, and understandably so, on the State of Ohio, a stunning development in the State of Florida -- which Al Gore would have won in 2000 with the benefit of a statewide manual recount, but which George W. Bush mysteriously carried by more than 380,000 votes in 2004 -- has engendered new questions about whether and how top G.O.P. officials orchestrated the theft of a presidential election on November 2nd, 2004. News of this development nearly escaped the attention of The Advocate, released as it was (quite inadvisably, some would say) on Christmas Eve.

Observers of national politics will recall that, before the 2004 election, there was a good deal of chatter about a prospective G.O.P. effort to place so-called "poll-watchers" in selected precincts in battleground states. These "poll-watchers" were to be tasked with one mission, and one mission only: to challenge any and all likely Democratic-leaning voters whose registrations or identities could be challenged were they to appear in person at a polling place. The tacit purpose of these challenges would be to either disqualify the affected voter or else force him or her to vote by "provisional ballot" -- a form of voting in which the voter's ballot has (if recent trends are any indication) a greater than 20% chance of being thrown out post-election. The placement of poll-watchers was seen as an ideal opportunity for Republicans, under the cover of the federal Help America Vote Act (HAVA) and state election statutes, to substantially reduce and/or intimidate large blocks of heavily-Democratic, largely-minority voters at polling places around the county. The BBC even obtained a copy of a so-called "caging list" from a county-level G.O.P. office in Florida. The list -- allegedly one of hundreds or thousands of such lists -- identified a long roll of voters the Republican Party intended to challenge at the polls on election day.

Then, just seventy-two hours before polls were set to open on November 2nd, 2004, something changed -- and it changed most dramatically in the State of Florida, unquestionably the most hotly-contested state in the entire election cycle, the state which nearly cost Republicans the presidency in 2000. The state which the G.O.P. had lavished more time, money, and attention on than any other.

State Republican operatives in Florida received word that a decision had been made not to challenge Democratic-leaning voters at the polls; in the final accounting, of the millions -- and millions -- and millions -- of Florida voters (over 7.5 million total), only 63 were challenged at the polls.

According to G.O.P. spokesman Joseph Agostini, the decision to "change direction" was prompted by a change in the "situation" in Florida; as a result of this change of situation, "things were retooled and redirected" on election day.

The Advocate stops here to remind its readers that, on election day, Vice President Dick Cheney advised his wife, Lynne -- who had seen the exit poll numbers predicting a national landslide for John F. Kerry -- not to worry, because the numbers were, in his words, "wrong." [Per a Fox News Channel interview with Mrs. Cheney]. Presidential adviser Karl Rove was likewise said to have been strangely sanguine about the early exit poll numbers, numbers which he -- like the Vice President -- was unusually well-convinced would not hold up as the evening progressed. [Per a Newsweek Magazine article on the behind-the-scenes reactions of Bush Administration senior officials on November 2nd, 2004].

Did Karl Rove and Dick Cheney know something on election day which the National Election Pool (a consortium of ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, and the Fox News Channel) still don't know -- that is, why and how and where the Mitofsky/Edison International election-day exit polling went wrong?

And who gave the signal to Florida G.O.P. operatives seventy-two hours before the election that there would be no need for them to challenge the tens of thousands of Democratic-leaning voters they had long intended to challenge?

And why has not a single mainstream media source asked Mr. Agostini to answer that question?

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

Once again, the title says it...its just a pathetic feeble attempt to discredit our elected officials. The lefty-Dems didnt get their way, & they were pissed. At any rate, I wouldnt feel safe today is Kerry was in office. I dont feel "safe" here in America in general, but I feel safer with the current leadership.

You used the word INDISPUTABLE (your emphasis, not mine). Well, I just gave you proof that it was disputed. Didn't I?