Interesting site I found

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Sapphire Girl

Interesting how people always bring up the Nazis but always ignore the Communist regimes. Why is that when over 20 million people died under Stalin?

A Communist? What's that? Never heard of one.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

I'm with you, Jason. It's awful but it's not nearly as awful as that situation was, and even by saying that I'm making a grand understatement. I do think there are parallels, though. I think that fear and the need for direction guided many people in our last election here as it did in Germany (though there was no free election when Hitler came to power). In the case of Germany, they were in need of someone to help their economic situation and they feared that their country was going to stay in its unfavorable and hated position without a leader like Hitler guiding them. There were many more complicated issues with Germany and the time period, I believe, but I think that fear and need for a clear direction came into play in this past election. We wanted someone who promised to prevent terrorism (however ridiculously ambitious that is) and we needed to feel safe, like the country could be like it was before 9/11. I imagine that came into play with voters, though I know well that it was a false sense of security.

I agree with that and, interestingly, the D's are not really weak of the fighting of terrorism. I mean Clinton prevented an attack and caught the people responsible for the successful ones. Conversely, W allowed the "big" attack to happen here because all facts have demonstrated that essentially out of arrogance, sheer stupidity, and blind hatred of anything asociated with Clinton, W did not consider OBL a threat on American soil and was focused pretty much solely on Iraq, despite being told by just about every expert there is that OBL was THE threat and that is where the focus should be. Then, after America is horribly caught with her pants down, he does not catch OBL, though to be fair, his admin. has caught an insignificant amount of Al-Q operatives though perhaps many perished in Afgan - so there is at least that. Then, what does W do after Afgan? Does he learn his lesson? Inexplicably, no he did not. He instead refocuses on Iraq and SH. He successfully and outright fraudulantly linked OBL and SH (when in reality there was no significant connection) in an effort to sell an invasion he was unable to sell without such a link. And that invasion did NOTHING to protect America from Al-Q - the people who attacked us. What it did do, however, was make the small faction of the Arab world that perhaps like us, not like us. Yet, people just continue to incorrectly think W is the divine one who will protect America, when he has done everything BUT that.

Oh well, at least those nasty and uppity gays were put back in their place because Jesus talked so much about how He hated them and how they are the cause of God removing His protection from America

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Also I think there's always been a lot of misinformation out there regarding Stalin as a socialist. Stalin's society was more of a state capitalist society, which really tore down the successful workers revolution in Russia.

Both former Stalinists and many right wingers share the same flawed assumption -- that the Stalinist states were socialist. Under Stalinism, the working class had absolutely no true rights and were absolutely exploited.

In my opinion the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, or USSR, had absolutely nothing to do with true socialism.

Chris

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sparky

Read the Kitty Kelley book, The Family. The way they have married to attain political power, and allied themselves with wealth to finance campaigns..it is compelling information. It's been genius, actually. They got what they wanted. I think the ultimate outcome is wretched for the country, but it is a hell of a story.

The Bush family could all be taking one big collective **** in the woods and if a wild boar came charging after them, they'd all escape unscathed with enough time to yank up their drawers and wipe their pee-pees. Nothing sticks to them, nothing ever will. Bush's brother enjoyed the company of underage Asian hookers on many occasions, yet his wife is the one dragged through the mud. Shrub invades another country for preposterous reasons and two years later, his global clout is stronger than ever. NOTHING STICKS. Things will never change.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by ShangriLaTroubl

Also I think there's always been a lot of misinformation out there regarding Stalin as a socialist. Stalin's society was more of a state capitalist society, which really tore down the successful workers revolution in Russia.

Both former Stalinists and many right wingers share the same flawed assumption -- that the Stalinist states were socialist. Under Stalinism, the working class had absolutely no true rights and were absolutely exploited.

In my opinion the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, or USSR, had absolutely nothing to do with true socialism.

Chris

Interetingly and a little off topic, but I think true Communism cannot exist. I think people inherently want to own things and have autonomy, both of which really do not exist in true communism. But, it looks good on paper.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I agree with that and, interestingly, the D's are not really weak of the fighting of terrorism. I mean Clinton prevented an attack and caught the people responsible for the successful ones. Conversely, W allowed the "big" attack to happen here because all facts have demonstrated that essentially out of arrogance, sheer stupidity, and blind hatred of anything asociated with Clinton, W did not consider OBL a threat on American soil and was focused pretty much solely on Iraq, despite being told by just about every expert there is that OBL was THE threat and that is where the focus should be. Then, after America is horribly caught with her pants down, he does not catch OBL, though to be fair, his admin. has caught an insignificant amount of Al-Q operatives though perhaps many perished in Afgan - so there is at least that. Then, what does W do after Afgan? Does he learn his lesson? Inexplicably, no he did not. He instead refocuses on Iraq and SH. He successfully and outright fraudulantly linked OBL and SH (when in reality there was no significant connection) in an effort to sell an invasion he was unable to sell without such a link. And that invasion did NOTHING to protect America from Al-Q - the people who attacked us. What it did do, however, was make the small faction of the Arab world that perhaps like us, not like us. Yet, people just continue to incorrectly think W is the divine one who will protect America, when he has done everything BUT that.

Oh well, at least those nasty and uppity gays were put back in their place because Jesus talked so much about how He hated them and how they are the cause of God removing His protection from America

Great ending there!

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Interetingly and a little off topic, but I think true Communism cannot exist. I think people inherently want to own things and have autonomy, both of which really do not exist in true communism. But, it looks good on paper.

I agree also

It's really kind of hard for any to really truly exist in the purest of forms--Democracy, Communism, Socialism, whatever...maybe tyranny is the only one that can truly exist...and who wants that--

Chris

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I agree with that and, interestingly, the D's are not really weak of the fighting of terrorism.

Try to sell that to the American people. George W. Bush is our savior and protector, don't you forget it, bub. I just don't know how vulnerable those people in Cowpoke, Alabama would be to a terrorist attack if a Democrat was the president!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

The Bush family could all be taking one big collective **** in the woods and if a wild boar came charging after them, they'd all escape unscathed with enough time to yank up their drawers and wipe their pee-pees. Nothing sticks to them, nothing ever will. Bush's brother enjoyed the company of underage Asian hookers on many occasions, yet his wife is the one dragged through the mud. Shrub invades another country for preposterous reasons and two years later, his global clout is stronger than ever. NOTHING STICKS. Things will never change.

Interestingly and for sake of civil argument, I think that while the Bush family has that teflon quality in the private world, they really do not so much in public life. His father, though a private global player on a large scale, certainly did not have it to the extent that he siffered a humiliating defeat after a lackluster first term.

Also, I think it was 9/11 that handed it to W, who was falling out of favor fast prior to then. So, while W may have some teflon quality, it is the assertion of the prevention of terrorism coupled with most Americans outright hatred of Arabs that allows W the power he has. That assertion could be granted to anyone though

Anyway - food for thought

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Originally Posted by dissention

Try to sell that to the American people. George W. Bush is our savior and protector, don't you forget it, bub. I just don't know how vulnerable those people in Cowpoke, Alabama would be to a terrorist attack if a Democrat was the president!

well as a hick friend of mine once told me "If Bush doesnt win this election, we're all gonna die, dont u know that??"

Chris

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Try to sell that to the American people. George W. Bush is our savior and protector, don't you forget it, bub. I just don't know how vulnerable those people in Cowpoke, Alabama would be to a terrorist attack if a Democrat was the president!

Well, Kerry did and lost And - I think the main reason he lost was he was unwilling to take a hard line against terrorism and stick to it. Sad - very true.

[macfanken]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Again and in an effort to stave off any misconception, I think W is perhaps the worst President in the history of this country, and that is saying a lot. I cannot stand him or his policies. I think he is an abomination to human rights and, despite his hiding behind The Bible, the most anti-Christian, as that term was defined by Jesus, President we have ever had because of his lack of compassion for the poor and meek - these are the least of us that Chirst so loved. I am just noting that Hitler was far, far worse.

I'm definitely not trying to compare anything Bush has done to anything the Nazis did in WWII... I'm not THAT far out there! I've been to Dachau and Bergen-Belsen and have seen the mass graves, the ovens and what's left of the concentration camps... nothing our government has done compares to the horrors of the Holocaust. (Although I do consider Bush a war criminal.)

I guess my point was that before WWII, most Germans probably thought that Hitler was good for Germany... just as today many in this country think that Bush is good for America. Hitler played on Germans' fear, anger and resentment to consolidate his power... sounds A LOT like the tactics Rove and Bush used during last year's election.

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by ShangriLaTroubl

well as a hick friend of mine once told me "If Bush doesnt win this election, we're all gonna die, dont u know that??"

Chris

And don't forget that gun rights are safe.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

I want anarchism.

personally, politically, or both

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by macfanken

. . .

I guess my point was that before WWII, most Germans probably thought that Hitler was good for Germany... just as today many in this country think that Bush is good for America. Hitler played on Germans' fear, anger and resentment to consolidate his power... sounds A LOT like the tactics Rove and Bush used during last year's election.

and - on that we agree

sorry if I misconstrued your intent