Senate Votes to Allow Arctic Drilling

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by dissention

Uh...Amber. But I don't think she has a car.

I'm still furious over not getting my hybrid. They called me to tell me it had come in, but when I went to the dealership, they said it had been a mistake and I was still way down on the list. It's now been a year on that ****ing list.

I walk to work and have a car so I could drive but I don't.

Those jackasses, make Diss a hybrid, dammit!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by amber

You are wrong about the harm, did you read the articles? And - I do not drive. If you care to read it, here is an article why drilling in the arctic would not be cost effective at all.
http://www.wilderness.org/Library/Do...ve-Summary.pdf

Again, play fair and post the ones for it They are out there - but you post only one side

I think you think I relish the idea of harming even a little but the Artic area. I do not. I just am calling a spade a spade by noting ther we (myself included) talk a great game, but we all do not really do anything about it If just 5% of America refused to use oil in any fashion or for that matter turned exclusively to alt. fuel sources that are out there, the oil industry would have no choice but to support these other fuel sources. Yet, America, along with the rest of the world do not do this

[amber]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

You're not being "realistic" you're just being cynical. Reality is what we make of it. The "arctic refuge" is supposed to be an area of preservation for animals which are totally helpless against this greed and destruction (I did not say total destruction). I don't know much about oil in China and Argentina. The Middle East has helped rape itself. The wells are in the desert and they are not new, they already exist. It's not the same thing.

right, and as usual, people fail to understand that when you harm an ecosystem, it's not just the animals that suffer (cause, for whatever reason, many people don't give a sh** about animals) it is us. We are at the top of this food chain. We are not independent of it, we are part of it. Hello? Hello?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

You're not being "realistic" you're just being cynical. Reality is what we make of it. The "arctic refuge" is supposed to be an area of preservation for animals which are totally helpless against this greed and destruction (I did not say total destruction). I don't know much about oil in China and Argentina. The Middle East has helped rape itself. The wells are in the desert and they are not new, they already exist. It's not the same thing.

I agree to an extent, but my point is why is it okay to say the hell with these other places but Alaska is somehow sacred. I mean animals live in the desert Certainly they were effected by this. Morevoer, that oil was transfered through pipelines and then by boat. To me, it is all the same and it is hypocritical to suddenly say from the comfort of our oil based lives "but Alaska should be saved" for relatively little harm compared to the drilling that occured just ten years ago.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

. . . Those jackasses, make Diss a hybrid, dammit!

He already is an alien

BTW - do you work close to where you live or do you walk several miles everyday and in the rain If you do - great and I stand corrected but still suggest you are the very limited exception to the rule.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I agree to an extent, but my point is why is it okay to say the hell with these other places but Alaska is somehow sacred. I mean animals live in the desert Certainly they were effected by this. Morevoer, that oil was transfered through pipelines and then by boat. To me, it is all the same and it is hypocritical to suddenly say from the comfort of our oil based lives "but Alaska should be saved" for relatively little harm compared to the drilling that occured just ten years ago.

Well, I see that you are gone to me. Hopeless. I don't know why you don't get it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by amber

right, and as usual, people fail to understand that when you harm an ecosystem, it's not just the animals that suffer (cause, for whatever reason, many people don't give a sh** about animals) it is us. We are at the top of this food chain. We are not independent of it, we are part of it. Hello? Hello?

Is that just the animals in that part of Alaska becuase if not, what about all those animals that suffered in some part just from the oil it took to produce this discussion?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

I'd be interested to know why it takes so long to produce these cars - since the technology is already in place (the factories, equipment, etc) it seems they could get them out faster, no? *suspicious*

Because the sale of gas would dip a bit if the hyrbids were sold and used on a mass level. It's all about money. Same reason we supposedly haven't found cures for some illnesses and diseases; drug profits would go down because people would be cured and then wouldn't be buying medication after medication after medication to alleviate this and that.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

Well, I see that you are gone to me. Hopeless. I don't know why you don't get it.

I get it. I get that all drilling should stop now and in fact should have stopped decades ago. My point is we as a society did not care enough to make that happen and really still do not unless it pertains to Alaska, which is somehow sacrosanct.

[amber]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Again, play fair and post the ones for it They are out there - but you post only one side

I think you think I relish the idea of harming even a little but the Artic area. I do not. I just am calling a spade a spade by noting ther we (myself included) talk a great game, but we all do not really do anything about it If just 5% of America refused to use oil in any fashion or for that matter turned exclusively to alt. fuel sources that are out there, the oil industry would have no choice but to support these other fuel sources. Yet, America, along with the rest of the world do not do this

I tried to find some, but I haven't yet. Although they are alluded to in the article I put there. And debunked. And we are not more vocal because many people think the way you do. As you will notice, when more people started to care, they started to make hybrid cars. And even that was veeery slow compared to how many people did care from way back. We just have to keep pushing, hard, for the change to come, because there are clearly many monied interests against that change. That is part of the reason why your attitude infuriates me (In a non offensive way). You can probably get a hybrid car, did you sign up for one? It is at least one way to put your money where your mouth is. Well, apparently not your mouth, but you see what I mean.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

He already is an alien

BTW - do you work close to where you live or do you walk several miles everyday and in the rain If you do - great and I stand corrected but still suggest you are the very limited exception to the rule.

People think I'm nuts because I walk in rain/snow/etc. I'm about 1 1/2 miles from the office so I walk 3 miles a day, up hill, in the rain/sleet/snow, with no shoes... The only time I don't walk is when I need my car for appointments and such. Or, if it is raining sideways. Guess I better get on one of those hybrid lists. But I want a convertible! Dammit.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by amber

I tried to find some, but I haven't yet. Although they are alluded to in the article I put there. And debunked. And we are not more vocal because many people think the way you do. As you will notice, when more people started to care, they started to make hybrid cars. And even that was veeery slow compared to how many people did care from way back. We just have to keep pushing, hard, for the change to come, because there are clearly many monied interests against that change. That is part of the reason why your attitude infuriates me (In a non offensive way). You can probably get a hybrid car, did you sign up for one? It is at least one way to put your money where your mouth is. Well, apparently not your mouth, but you see what I mean.

I did not buy a hybrid car because I am lazy. I readily admit that. Who here has the same sand? And do not limit that to cars. Apply it to all aspects of life. Who here really puts themselves out to conserve electricity. Who here walks everywhere. Who here has said, I am not going here because I think the plane burns too much fuel. I suspect no one

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

Because the sale of gas would dip a bit if the hyrbids were sold and used on a mass level. It's all about money. Same reason we supposedly haven't found cures for some illnesses and diseases; drug profits would go down because people would be cured and then wouldn't be buying medication after medication after medication to alleviate this and that.

Exactly. But I guess some people don't believe that, or don't care. I'm almost sure the hybrid car sales are being held up by *someone* - look at all the people on the waiting list who want one As of now, you can't convince me that they can't produce more of them, faster.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

People think I'm nuts because I walk in rain/snow/etc. I'm about 1 1/2 miles from the office so I walk 3 miles a day, up hill, in the rain/sleet/snow, with no shoes... The only time I don't walk is when I need my car for appointments and such. Or, if it is raining sideways. Guess I better get on one of those hybrid lists. But I want a convertible! Dammit.

I think VW is making a diesel bug conv. that gets like 50 MPG - but I could be wrong

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I get it. I get that all drilling should stop now and in fact should have stopped decades ago. My point is we as a society did not care enough to make that happen and really still do not unless it pertains to Alaska, which is somehow sacrosanct.

Okay, I see your point. Phew, I thought you'd become completely heartless. I do care. I would never have gotten an SUV and, frankly, I was shocked by how many people jumped on that bandwagon without batting an eye regarding fuel economy. Americans are very egocentric and most don't care about other countries and it really sucks. Somehow we need to make sure people are more educated regarding how we are impacted by what happens everywhere, not just here. Why everyone matters should be a topic of daily discussion. As Suze says, "people first".