Juvenile death penalty unconstitutional

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by dissention

If I remember correctly, she doesn't approve of gay marriage but she doesn't support an amendment to ban it, either.

I could care less who the person is, once you start to approve of discrimination and taking someone's rights away, you become disrespectful.

Isn't the opposition to gay marriage disrespect in itself as well?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Isn't the opposition to gay marriage disrespect in itself as well?

I think so, but I'll take that over actively supporting a ban on them.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

To change the subject and add even more fire to this, I though Scalia had a point when in his dessent he said that the Court's reasoning that the DP should not apply to minors because they do not have the same mental and emotional capacity as an adult was specious because that same part of the Court clearly feels a minor can make the decision of whether to have an abortion without parental consent.

Sorry, Jason.... the two have nothing to do with each other (apples to oranges).

The emphasis of the death penalty judgement is about how the punishment is relative to the culpability of someone under 18. What Kennedy is saying is that, even though the crime is horrific, the fact that you are under 18 mitigates the ability to truly know all the hard consequences of one's actions. So, instead of the death penalty the perpetrator of the crime would life in prison with no chance of parole or some other punishment.

This concept has nothing to do with whether or not a pregnant teen should be able to get an abortion without parental consent.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by dissention

I think so, but I'll take that over actively supporting a ban on them.

But, I'm thinking that even though something is the lesser of two evils, it's still evil, right?

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Isn't the opposition to gay marriage disrespect in itself as well?

No. Believing that it's wrong (for whatever reason) is one thing- actively involving oneself in the prohibition of it is another. That's what tolerance (vs. acceptance) is all about.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by The Tower

No. Believing that it's wrong (for whatever reason) is one thing- actively involving oneself in the prohibition of it is another. That's what tolerance (vs. acceptance) is all about.

So, you're saying that I should settle for tolerance because acceptance is probably too much to ask for? (Sorry to be putting words in your mouth. )

I always say that tolerance is not enough for me, and shouldn't be enough for fellow gays and other minorities. I want acceptance and understanding.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Isn't the opposition to gay marriage disrespect in itself as well?

I'm going to chime in here

I don't think the opposition in itself is disrespectful. There are still people who believe that marriage is a completely religious and traditional thing - and they just want it left the way it is....perhaps out of ignorance yes, perhaps out of stubbornness - and some people even out of hatred.....BUT I know like my grandma - she doesn't hate gay people, doesn't disrespect them - but doesn't feel as though they should get "married"

My sister feels the same way, though she supports civil unions....and a marriage as long as it isn't actually labeled "marriage" I don't get it - but it apparently makes sense to her - and she's doesn't hate or dislike gay people - she's always supported me and my friends...

I also know gay people who oppose gay marriage so

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by The Tower

No. Believing that it's wrong (for whatever reason) is one thing- actively involving oneself in the prohibition of it is another. That's what tolerance (vs. acceptance) is all about.

I think that's generally what I was trying to say ....the actual BANNING of gay marriage, say in the constitution, equal disrespect....but well yeah - what Tower said

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

I'm going to chime in here

I don't think the opposition in itself is disrespectful. There are still people who believe that marriage is a completely religious and traditional thing - and they just want it left the way it is....perhaps out of ignorance yes, perhaps out of stubbornness - and some people even out of hatred.....BUT I know like my grandma - she doesn't hate gay people, doesn't disrespect them - but doesn't feel as though they should get "married"

My sister feels the same way, though she supports civil unions....and a marriage as long as it isn't actually labeled "marriage" I don't get it - but it apparently makes sense to her - and she's doesn't hate or dislike gay people - she's always supported me and my friends...

I think that these people are being disrespectful of gays in an unconscious way, either because of ignorance or stubborness or reluctance to admit to themselves that they are being disrespectful.

I also know gay people who oppose gay marriage so

I think those people are a whole 'nother story. It's different when you support denying your fellow minorities the same rights as others. It's nonsenical to me.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

But, I'm thinking that even though something is the lesser of two evils, it's still evil, right?

Of course. Just look at George W. Bush vs. John Kerry.

Like racism, gay discrimination is always going to exist. It doesn't help when you have political leaders comparing gay relationships to beastiality, but we live in a country where people believe such things. We also live in a country where dominant religious beliefs are passed off on pretty much everyone, regardless of how you personally feel. I know I'm not happy that my tax money goes to fund faith-based initiatives in churches that are run by scumbags, but such is life. So, if we have bigots and religious fundies running the joint, I'll take someone who doesn't agree with gay marriage instead of someone who disagrees with gay marriage and actively tries to prevent it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

Isn't the opposition to gay marriage disrespect in itself as well?

In my case no. I oppose the govt. sanctioning any kind of marriage whatsoever. The word married and spouse should be in no law.

But, that will never happen. so I am for gay or any other kind of marriage.

[GateandGarden]

Sorry that I'm engaging y'all in this and can't stick around with any consistency to particpiate, but I have to run to class. I thank all of you for your input.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Originally Posted by dissention

I'll take someone who doesn't agree with gay marriage instead of someone who disagrees with gay marriage and actively tries to prevent it.

Voting against it is an active form of prevention. Yes?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Sorry, Jason.... the two have nothing to do with each other (apples to oranges).

The emphasis of the death penalty judgement is about how the punishment is relative to the culpability of someone under 18. What Kennedy is saying is that, even though the crime is horrific, the fact that you are under 18 mitigates the ability to truly know all the hard consequences of one's actions. So, instead of the death penalty the perpetrator of the crime would life in prison with no chance of parole or some other punishment.

This concept has nothing to do with whether or not a pregnant teen should be able to get an abortion without parental consent.

Well, they do in the sense that if we assume all teens cannot understand the ramifications of what they are doing, then that should be applied evenly. It is possible that that teen that is not able to understand the ramifications of things will later regret her decision and think she committed murder, which is her choice and why it is called pro choice Then again, I am for parental consent with a judicial escape hatch for this same reason.

In any event, I think they are related but I still oppose the DP for minors.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by ontheEdgeof17

Voting against it is an active form of prevention. Yes?

I would think so.