Republican Celebrities

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

And where did I say I approve of either? All I said was that if there is meat in the store for you to buy and you can buy it, do it, don't kill another animal.

Not meaning to speak for Curtis here, but I do believe he was commenting directly to this statement of yours:

Originally Posted by dissention

No one needs to kill another beautiful creature when there is plenty of food out there for them to eat already. Why kill one more animal than needs to be killed?

Which is a fair enough opinion for those who live in urban areas, but Curtis was pointing out that many of us in this country live in rural areas, and in these rural areas many people need to hunt for their food. They don't have the luxury of driving to the Try 'N Save and buying it at the meat counter.

While "no one" in your area may need to ever hunt for food, many people in other areas do.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by amber

Just because we've ruined the natural food cycle, still doesn't make hunting worse than buying your meat in a store. Unless you're hunting to make endangered species kabobs, which most people aren't. Most people who hunt for food hunt deer and birds and fish, and possibly rabbits. And for the most part, those things aren't endangered. In fact, many people hunt during "deer season." Obviously, I don't agree with hunting for sport, and hunting big cats and wolves, etc, that are endangered. But that just isn't what most people hunt for food.

Hunting is UNNECESSARY because we can buy our food in a store. Deep down, whether people want to admit it or not, I think hunting is basically a competitive activity, the hunter pits his "skill" against the wild animal's instincts. My problem with hunting is that it artificially weights the odds against the animal. Also, as I have stated, the need is just not there because each and every one of us is able to get to a store. In Curtis' case, maybe not in winter, in which case, I dont think anyone begrudges him deer meet in the dead of winter, except possibly the mountain lion in his neck of the woods. I just feel that its a waste to talk about modern man in terms of the "classic food chain" because our technology has allowed our population to explode to the point that the natural food chain couldnt help us anyway! We actually NEED those damn slaughterhouses unfortunately

[amber]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

helloooooo, you cant disregard the lack of natural predator! Thats WHY there are too many deer in some places! We will never learn if we dont admit our mistakes!

as for the "classic food chain" our population has thrown that whole process out of whack and necessitated the formation of meat farms....the meat farms didnt come first

Hello, what are you talking about? I didn't say there weren't natural predators; unfortunately we have hunted them to near extinction. But letting there be too many deer won't make there be more mountain lions, magically. And until we restore the predators, we still have to control the deer populations so they don't wreak havoc on the balance of the rest of the ecosystem still in place. And, um, do you think people didn't eat meat before there were meat farms? The Europeans absolutely brought their domesticated animals here, which later led to meat farms, to the detriment of the ecosystems that were already in place here. And yes, I still realize there is "no going back" now.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

That seems not only hypocritical to me, but I still submit you are killing, or causing to be killed, the same amount of animals either way.
It's okay, though, obviously we will never agree.

Call it what you want and I'll probably disagree. We just have different viewpoints when it comes to this issue.

I simply can't fathom ending another creatures life, whether it be in a slaughterhouse or hunting it. It doesn't make me feel good, especially when I think of the pain the animals must go through and what must go through their minds as they die. I don't think it's my job to take their lives away. I'm sure I come across as silly and a bit of a loon, but oh well.

[amber]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Hunting is UNNECESSARY because we can buy our food in a store. Deep down, whether people want to admit it or not, I think hunting is basically a competitive activity, the hunter pits his "skill" against the wild animal's instincts. My problem with hunting is that it artificially weights the odds against the animal. Also, as I have stated, the need is just not there because each and every one of us is able to get to a store. In Curtis' case, maybe not in winter, in which case, I dont think anyone begrudges him deer meet in the dead of winter, except possibly the mountain lion in his neck of the woods. I just feel that its a waste to talk about modern man in terms of the "classic food chain" because our technology has allowed our population to explode to the point that the natural food chain couldnt help us anyway! We actually NEED those damn slaughterhouses unfortunately

I don't think buying a killed animal in the store is any worse than hunting for your meat, it is as simple as that. I think either one takes away an equal amount of an animal life, ie, 1=1. And I don't think deer hunting generally takes away from the mountain lion quota. Because of overhunting of mountain lions, the mountain lion to deer ratio is very much in favor of the lion. Whatev., we will never agree, I suppose.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Which is a fair enough opinion for those who live in urban areas, but Curtis was pointing out that many of us in this country live in rural areas, and in these rural areas many people need to hunt for their food. They don't have the luxury of driving to the Try 'N Save and buying it at the meat counter.

While "no one" in your area may need to ever hunt for food, many people in other areas do.

I'm not going to discount the people who must hunt for food, but the percentage of people in this country who must do it is pretty miniscule. You make it sound as if those in areas other than urban ones are forced to hunt to survive. While that is true for some, it isn't that many.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by amber

That seems not only hypocritical to me, but I still submit you are killing, or causing to be killed, the same amount of animals either way.
It's okay, though, obviously we will never agree.

It can be looked at this way... if one were to rely solely on hunting for their food, they would be bipassing the meat killed at slaughterhouses. Therefore cutting down on the amount of packaged meat sold, and, in turn, lessening the amount of animals the slaughterhouses killed.

But if one continues to buy packaged meat in a grocery store, then the slaughterhouses will continue to supply the meat to meet the demand.
You're not "saving" anything in the long run by going to the store for your meat. Animals are still being butchered for your dinner (and many of them in more inhumane ways than the animals killed by a rifle or a crossbow).

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

Call it what you want and I'll probably disagree. We just have different viewpoints when it comes to this issue.

I simply can't fathom ending another creatures life, whether it be in a slaughterhouse or hunting it. It doesn't make me feel good, especially when I think of the pain the animals must go through and what must go through their minds as they die. I don't think it's my job to take their lives away. I'm sure I come across as silly and a bit of a loon, but oh well.

Well, I understand that perfectly. It's why people are vegetarians. And I think that's great, and very logical. My point was more directed towards "if people eat meat". And no, I don't think you sound like a loon, I abhor animal pain, and wouldn't want to kill one, either. (Unless I was starving, then i probably would. *shudder*) I have to say, though, it really causes me heartache to think of an animal spending it's whole life tightly packed into a cage, or a small space (I guess i'm thinking of chickens) never being able to move around, or just, be an animal.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

It can be looked at this way... if one were to rely solely on hunting for their food, they would be bipassing the meat killed at slaughterhouses. Therefore cutting down on the amount of packaged meat sold, and, in turn, lessening the amount of animals the slaughterhouses killed.

But if one continues to buy packaged meat in a grocery store, then the slaughterhouses will continue to supply the meat to meet the demand.
You're not "saving" anything in the long run by going to the store for your meat. Animals are still being butchered for your dinner (and many of them in more inhumane ways than the animals killed by a rifle or a crossbow).

Exactly. (Didn't I say that a couple times? ) Of course, when stew says it, it is worded better.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by amber

Hello, what are you talking about? I didn't say there weren't natural predators; unfortunately we have hunted them to near extinction. But letting there be too many deer won't make there be more mountain lions, magically. And until we restore the predators, we still have to control the deer populations so they don't wreak havoc on the balance of the rest of the ecosystem still in place. And, um, do you think people didn't eat meat before there were meat farms? The Europeans absolutely brought their domesticated animals here, which later led to meat farms, to the detriment of the ecosystems that were already in place here. And yes, I still realize there is "no going back" now.

here's what I am talking about: when mountain lions are killed as vermin (many stock farmers kill them on sight, thinking they are a menace to their stock) the deer populations rise as a result. They then consume all of the forage in their own areas and wander to other areas and are perceived as a nuisance. People only see the immediate problem and dont look to the underlying one. I live in a mountain community with deer and mountain lions and occasionally a bear or two. The fact is, until people stop viewing predators as vermin, their plant eating prey are going to be a problem!

and this:

And, um, do you think people didn't eat meat before there were meat farms? The Europeans absolutely brought their domesticated animals here, which later led to meat farms, to the detriment of the ecosystems that were already in place here

is not quite correct. Yes, Europeans brought their meat animals with them. But historically until the industrial revolution, people basically raised their own food, with home gardens and stock and fruit trees for each family. It was the centralization of our population in cities and the fading away of family farms that brought about the necessity of grocery stores and mass production and "meat farms" not the scenario you posited.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

Well, I understand that perfectly. It's why people are vegetarians. And I think that's great, and very logical. My point was more directed towards "if people eat meat". And no, I don't think you sound like a loon, I abhor animal pain, and wouldn't want to kill one, either. (Unless I was starving, then i probably would. *shudder*) I have to say, though, it really causes me heartache to think of an animal spending it's whole life tightly packed into a cage, or a small space (I guess i'm thinking of chickens) never being able to move around, or just, be an animal.

Animals are no longer creatures of nature, they're an industry. They're butalized and treated like pieces of trash; it breaks me heart. I can't even go into pet shops because I see those poor things locked in cages and I know there's nothing I can do about it. I can't very well buy them all and take them home. But the whole concept of being the one to end the life of an animal is just unbearable to me. I don't even kill spiders, ants, or flies if I find one inside, I catch them in cups and gently put them down outside. I'm a baby to an extreme degree when it comes to these things.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

I'm not going to discount the people who must hunt for food, but the percentage of people in this country who must do it is pretty miniscule. You make it sound as if those in areas other than urban ones are forced to hunt to survive. While that is true for some, it isn't that many.

Well, only 10% of the population is gay, but we're still fighting for their rights.

It might be a small number overall of people who NEED to hunt for their food, but there are still quite a number of people in this country for whom going to a grocery store to pick up dinner just is not an option.

And really, if you think about it, when you hunt for your own food, at least you KNOW how the animal was killed. When we buy meat brought in from slaughterhouses, we're often guilty of the gruesome mistreatment of animals by complicity.

[amber]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

here's what I am talking about: when mountain lions are killed as vermin (many stock farmers kill them on sight, thinking they are a menace to their stock) the deer populations rise as a result. They then consume all of the forage in their own areas and wander to other areas and are perceived as a nuisance. People only see the immediate problem and dont look to the underlying one. I live in a mountain community with deer and mountain lions and occasionally a bear or two. The fact is, until people stop viewing predators as vermin, their plant eating prey are going to be a problem!

and this:
is not quite correct. Yes, Europeans brought their meat animals with them. But historically until the industrial revolution, people basically raised their own food, with home gardens and stock and fruit trees for each family. It was the centralization of our population in cities and the fading away of family farms that brought about the necessity of grocery stores and mass production and "meat farms" not the scenario you posited.

I know that, about the big predators, and i'm not saying we shouldn't address the underlying problem, I'm saying that in the meantime, there are still too many deer. Of course we should restore the deer's natural predators, but that still doesn't make any less deer, in the meantime.
I know people raised their own food, but it was still foreign cattle and pigs, which in itself is a bad thing to raise here, and detrimental to the natural ecology. There's nothing we can do about it now, but it was still stupid, shortsighted, detrimental, and possibly unnecessary.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by amber

I don't think buying a killed animal in the store is any worse than hunting for your meat, it is as simple as that. I think either one takes away an equal amount of an animal life, ie, 1=1. And I don't think deer hunting generally takes away from the mountain lion quota. Because of overhunting of mountain lions, the mountain lion to deer ratio is very much in favor of the lion. Whatev., we will never agree, I suppose.

its not the number of animal lives that is at issue!! it is the purpose the animal's life SERVES! A domesticated food animal is MEANT to be eaten by man! A wild animal is meant to be eaten by OTHER ANIMALS! If man eats wild animals, that effectively reduces the available food source for the predators in that particular food chain! Why is that so hard to grasp?

also this statement:

Because of overhunting of mountain lions, the mountain lion to deer ratio is very much in favor of the lion

makes no sense. Overhunting of mountain lions can remove them completely from an area which is why the deer are able to overpopulate...eventually the lions might be able to come back in or repopulate an area but it takes time and in the meantime, the deer can graze an area to nothing and ruin it...

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

Animals are no longer creatures of nature, they're an industry. They're butalized and treated like pieces of trash; it breaks me heart. I can't even go into pet shops because I see those poor things locked in cages and I know there's nothing I can do about it. I can't very well buy them all and take them home. But the whole concept of being the one to end the life of an animal is just unbearable to me. I don't even kill spiders, ants, or flies if I find one inside, I catch them in cups and gently put them down outside. I'm a baby to an extreme degree when it comes to these things.

I totally understand that. : And if you don't eat meat, I thank you for saving a little more of the world's trees, topsoil, millions of gallons of water that it takes to feed cows, and to grow their food. Not to mention the residual destruction of the ecosystems that used to thrive where there is now just grazing land and/or polluted irrigation water.