This proves Bush doesnt care about the little guy

[Sugar]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

Very well said, Sugar. I stayed up 'til one debating this and today I'm exhausted!

I have no doubt you're tired...

It just amazes me when I see POLITICIANS (forget a bunch of nobodies on a message board ) quoting the bible and using it for justification for passing a law. I mean, how far does it have to go before that is state sanctioned religion?

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by Sugar

I have no doubt you're tired...

It just amazes me when I see POLITICIANS (forget a bunch of nobodies on a message board ) quoting the bible and using it for justification for passing a law. I mean, how far does it have to go before that is state sanctioned religion?

Thinking about how far it could go is a very scary thing.

I heard this morning that Kennedy blasted Bush regarding this war and called it his Vietnam over the weekend. I want to hear more "somebodies" speak out this way.

[Sugar]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Yes indeed, very well said Sugar

So that said if someone could give me a logical, smart and well-thought out reason against homosexuality or gay-marriage - that has NOTHING to do with religion - I'm all ears - but no one can do that....therefore it shouldn't even be a political issue etc....

EXACTLY! When I hear any anti-gay rhetoric, the second I hear, "the Bible..." I usually say, "wait, we're talking about law. The bible ALONE has no place in law."

People will say, "Yeah but, our laws are based on the Ten Commandments..." and maybe that's true, but I think those that were applied to our system of laws passed an additional threshold by being logical necessities for keeping a civil society (not killing others, not stealing, etc.)

So yes, I'm looking for arguments that have nothing to do with the Bible. ANYONE?

[irishgrl]

re: abortion:
1) the Earth cannot sustain every potential pregnancy. China learned this the hard way when it was discovered that they could not FEED their population and had to IMPORT FOOD. Guess who they import it from?
2) Legislation limiting pregnancy is aimed at the POOR, the group with the least ability to care for more babies. In CA, the Hispanics are the fastest growing minority (both legal residents, AND illegal) and as good Catholics, they swell the ranks of public assistance by leaps and bounds. I should know, I am a Social Worker and I have detailed knowledge about the cash aid/foodstamp program and I can see the demographics in my office on a daily basis. I am also a Paralegal and I have researched the Abortion issue in great detail. I think it would surprise many of you to learn that originally, Abortion was limited because it was feared that the medical procedure was not safe, and that the concern was for the MOTHER'S LIFE!!! It wasnt until the 80's that the Moral Majority (there's a misnomer) put a new spin on things by equating "pro-life" with concern for the baby. Apparently the mother's situation no longer mattered. Couple this with the push to eliminate access to birth control and/or censor birth control education (I know many a school board that has been infiltrated by Bible thumping fundamentalists whose agenda includes mandatory Bible study and NO sex education) and you have young people whose futures are increasingly dismal as they become young parents without prospects.
3) Every time I hear the argument that we shouldnt tamper with God's will (every pregnancy is God's will, only God has the right to decide) I have to LAFF. We tamper with God's will ALL THE TIME! Think of all the diseases we cure/thwart and all the lives we've saved/prolonged and you see what I mean. This brings me back to the original point that the Earth cannot support an increasing population....
4) I myself see the handwriting on the wall, the current whittling of women's rights will eventually reduce women (and children btw) to the status of chattel (the property of a male head of household) and harken back to the 19th century. If a woman cant get a divorce because she is pregnant, and she cant get an abortion, she will be trapped. Im old enuff to remember the struggles of the Women's Rights groups of the 60's. I remember the stories of the back alley abortions. When people blithely say "oh well they shouldnt have sex then" they are speaking without knowledge of particular circumstances. I dont know what brings any individual into an abortion clinic, but its not MY place to judge and it isnt the job of the religious right either. If your religious beliefs forbid you from having an abortion then by God, DONT HAVE ONE! but DONT presume to tell ME what to do with MY body.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

which in essence is true...we should try to save ouselves for marriage...God forbid anyone speak of morality in these times we live in!

Your morality is not everyone's morality, dear.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

gee I wonder why...cause YOUR candidate won!

see thats the thing...if John Kerry would have won...then you wouldn't see this outlash from conservatives saying "It was rigged...we should have won." we would admitt defeat and say..."ok the loser won...we'll get over it."

You obviously don't know a thing about the neocons, then. That's the most ridiculous and naive statement yet.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

But thats the thing...I have said over and over (hey christine pun..lol) that I don't think that ANYONE is beneath ANYONE...we are all equal! PERIOD.

Then why shouldn't we all have the same rights if we're all equal?

[irishgrl]

have you heard the phrase: Some are more equal than others?
pretty apt Id say.

ps: please see my previous post #506

[dissention]

Originally Posted by ½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®

I’m going to throw in my 2¢. I love my God and enjoy the spiritual relationship I have with my God. I find the PC bible study program I have very fascinating. The bible teaches great values to live by and I believe most of the bible was written having good intentions. The problem with it is, yes man wrote it.

My thoughts on male homosexuals? I’m sorry I don’t understand it. I don’t hate anyone for being a homosexual but damn it men how can you look at another man and find him sexually attractive? I really can not fathom that. As far as a woman finding another woman sexually attractive I can deal with that. Strange isn’t it?

The main reason I popped in is to say “ After reading a good bit of this thread I need to talk to my God about what some of you have said.” I’m guilty of having been closed minded about gay males. I still don’t understand you men looking at each other’s winkies. Thinking about it will probably always make my skin crawl but I am seeing your views with a new light tonight.

Like I said “I don’t hate you”, but come on guys. The world is full of beautiful women. What the….. Why do you….. How can you….. Ewww.

Crap I give up.

I don't think it's something that anyone has to understand. No one needs to understand and know exactly why they're attracted to someone, half the time the person who finds them attracted to another doesn't understand it. I find myself attracted to women and men for different reasons. I don't analyze why that is and, quite frankly, I don't even give a **** myself. As long as I'm happy, that's all that matters.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

No facts to back you up, either. Coulter never let that stop her.

Oh, I love you, dear. That one made me laugh and spittle all over.

[irishgrl]

he said "spittle"!

still waiting for feedback on my incredibly pithy post #506!

[dissention]

I'm still waiting for you to read the UN Charter and to define Daniel Webster's take on self-defense, Brown Eyes.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by dissention

I'm still waiting for you to read the UN Charter and to define Daniel Webster's take on self-defense, Brown Eyes.

I have a feeling you will be waiting a long time there Diss

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

he said "spittle"!

still waiting for feedback on my incredibly pithy post #506!

Post #506 is my new bible

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Well I talked to God about a few things last night and I’m not posting the conversation. I will say what I got out of it was “God loves us all the way we are.” Were all sinners and sin is sin. One sin is no worse then the other and my sins are no worse then yours.

I’m sure this is going to sound very stupid to a few of you but it’s my decision. I belong to 2 other message boards. One is a small private board with around 3,000 members. The other has well over 104,000 members. I guess because this board is somewhat small the threads tend to go off in directions I don’t particularly care for. There’s a lot of love here but a lot of picking too. We all have a right to our own opinions but it’s getting old.

I’ll be visiting to catch the band news but I won’t be posting here anymore. It’s been fun but I’m moving on. That’s my decision and mine alone. I wish you all peace and happiness in you’re lives.

I will be adding one more thread to this forum that I found on my private board. It was eye opening and I’ll check back to see your thoughts on it. Take care folks and keep safe.