Spoiler-Chris Isaak-Christmas!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by David

Once you set those as virtues in & of themselves, where does it logically proceed? Why not be done with the "poetry" completely -- with even its minimal semblance of formalism, even in a Stevie Nicks song -- & just come out to California to drive the freeways. You'll hear plenty of raw, emotional, & off-the-cuff language from some of the other drivers.

That's not the type of rawness I'm referring to. Even if Stevie says, "that made me stronger, it made me hold onto me" in a clunky way, it's still a little more poetic than a truck-driver shouting expletives at a passing car.

Regardless, I'm not saying that the opinions I hold are completely cut and dry/black and white. Certainly there are variances and room for exceptions.

My point remains that I think Stevie's clunky lyrics are just as important as her brilliant lyrics, when it comes to what makes Stevie so appealing to me. And I feel that way whether those lyrics damage her respect in someone else's eyes, or not.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by sparky

This is hysterical. I am not talking about tone. I am talking about the use of language. "I'm lonely, I'm lonely, I'm lonely" is warm ? Is poetic ? I am thrilled that you respond to it. But to call a line like that poetry is like calling Stevie tall.

Forgive me, but I feel that the simple expression "I'm lonely," is warmer than comparing oneself to Icarus... a somewhat obscure mythological character that the average person is NOT going to be able to relate to.
I'm not saying that Joni's line wasn't brilliant and beautiful... but I would like to know how many people out there, outside those of us familiar with Greek mythology, could actually relate to it.

Originally Posted by sparky

I can't see the difference here. Is it artistically inauthentic to rework a phrase to make it sound better ? Obsessing ? Countless times ? It is preosterous to suggest rewriting a lyric or a line in a book is tantamount to gutting it of all meaning. Art doesn't fall out of people like apples off a tree. That's where you and I really differ. That belief right there.


That is actually not a bad line, of course she is using the word dream for the 400th time, but at least it's coupled with a new word.
I am not actually suggesting that Stevie use a rhyming dictionary for all her songs, but for God's sake how about expanding the vocabulary ? I suppose that would be somehow violating her muse and selling out. Education is the bastardization of all creative authenticy ? Following this logic she would be a more pure artist if she were banging on a rock. It is puzzling to me that you interpret rewriting and refining art as second guessing and not following one's artisitic impulses. Especially when we have all seen the evolution of Stevie's demos - the ones that did radically change lyric wise and music wise over the years. Are the evolved products phony and less meaningful ? I don't think so. Ultimately, we don't know how much each song was changed from inception to release. However, I would bet anything most of the lyrics lately aren't getting a whole lot of second looks. I think she used to concentrate more on them.

I'm done debating this. Consider it me throwing in the towel or having run out of arguments, if you must.
I find enjoyment in these lyrics even if you think they are ever so lame and embarrassing.

I'd ask your forgiveness for having defended the right of an artist to express themselves in the manner with which they see fit, but I honestly don't apologize for feeling that way.
Hopefully if and when you create something that you're proud of... a poem, a song, a painting... you won't have dozens of people pointing out to you the 1,173 ways they (or someone else) could have done it better.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Forgive me, but I feel that the simple expression "I'm lonely," is warmer than comparing oneself to Icarus... a somewhat obscure mythological character that the average person is NOT going to be able to relate to.
I'm not saying that Joni's line wasn't brilliant and beautiful... but I would like to know how many people out there, outside those of us familiar with Greek mythology, could actually relate to it.

I am sure that's way more obscure than a certain figure in Welsh mythology. Talk about obscure !

I'm done debating this. Consider it me throwing in the towel or having run out of arguments, if you must.
I find enjoyment in these lyrics even if you think they are ever so lame and embarrassing.

Okay. I never considered it a debate. I'm just trying to clearly understand your persective and explain mine, but I do believe we are speaking two different languages, in a sense.

I'd ask your forgiveness for having defended the right of an artist to express themselves in the manner with which they see fit, but I honestly don't apologize for feeling that way.

Forgiveness ? That has got to be fascetious. Defend away ! I am endlessly fascinated by WHY poeple think what they think. Much more than what they think.

Hopefully if and when you create something that you're proud of... a poem, a song, a painting... you won't have dozens of people pointing out to you the 1,173 ways they (or someone else) could have done it better.

Dude, I create sets every day. And people comment on them all the time. And I have written many songs, some magazine articles, and painted some paintings. I like criticism, and frankly, the more people talk about someone's work, the better. Like Mae West said, "I don't care what you call me, just as long as ya call me."

[takenbythesky]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm done debating this. Consider it me throwing in the towel or having run out of arguments, if you must.
I find enjoyment in these lyrics even if you think they are ever so lame and embarrassing.

I'd ask your forgiveness for having defended the right of an artist to express themselves in the manner with which they see fit, but I honestly don't apologize for feeling that way.
Hopefully if and when you create something that you're proud of... a poem, a song, a painting... you won't have dozens of people pointing out to you the 1,173 ways they (or someone else) could have done it better.

To me...The simplest explanation for why I love Stevie's songs (clunkers and all) is that she is very human; I have never found another artist who is quite like her in this regard. Her delivery somehow manages to get me every time; of course sometimes it takes a million listens to songs from her less creative periods to feel the emotional impact. Still, she has a song for each one of my billions of moods/emotions. No one else does.

This effect is a result of not only Stevie's lyrics but also her delivery. I am not talking about whether or not she is on key nor how her voice stacks up to its past glories and triumphs. To me, Stevie is an even better interperter of song than she ever was. A listen to recent tunes such as Goodbye Baby or Somebody Stand By Me proves this. "Sara" on the second leg of the Say You Will tour was better than ever, hands down. The voice is more textured and deeper, allowing for more nuances in certain cases. The burden of 56 years of life has, to me, only served to ripen her gift.

That voice is undeniably unique. There's something oh so intangible about it; I call the phenomonon "tracking a ghost through a fog" in honor of a certain song . The quality is partly the technical aspect of her voice (the vibratto, etc.) Yet in every single recording I've heard, no matter how drug-influenced, there is an urgency and yearning to Stevie's voice. The voice can lift me up to the stars high, high above; hit me like an icepick to my very emotional core; make me relaxed and sure that everything is going to be all right; wrap around a groove and make me want to dance; the possibilities are endless, I believe. The whole package of Stevie Nicks' voice is why I will always track that "ghost" quality through any fog until she sings her final note. I don't care how mediocre the material is, she makes the songs extraordinarily relatable and listenable.

Of course I'm exasperated and tired of Ms. Nicks at times; but there is something about the way she sings and writes that always brings me back. It always will, too. The first time that I heard "Rhiannon" I was absolutely floored. I had absolutely no idea what the woman who sang it would look like, only that she would be dead sexy to match her voice-the sexiest thing that I have ever heard. "What in the hell is that," I recall thinking. "Whose voice is that? I've never heard anything like it..." With each new release from Stevie, there are moments exactly like that one. Moments that I cherish. It's just something within her. And I love whatever it is.

Feel free to dissect and prove wrong every point I have made. It doesn't matter. I just wanted to express myself here. Stevie Nicks has rescued me from the brink of wanting to kill myself; I also listen to her when rehabilitating my body because her songs are very encouraging. For that, I'm eternally grateful. Nothing you can say can break the spell that woman can hold over me with song.
-Justin

[ricohv]

Somewhere in this thread I just really lost interest as it is all so subjective arguing the merits of someone against other poets or singers or blah blah blah. But to you Justin I say kudos, high fives and probably some other blah blah blah that I can't think of right now. You said it perfectly (and by page 14 it's about time!)

Ricoh

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by sparky

Okay. I never considered it a debate. I'm just trying to clearly understand your persective and explain mine, but I do believe we are speaking two different languages, in a sense.

I thought I had explained my perspective. To the point where I was repeating myself.
I feel Stevie's lyrical foibles are just as important to the appreciation of her music as her moments of lyrical brilliance. I even explained why (because it humanizes her in a way that is lacking in many other songwriters, how ever perfect their lyrical turn of phrases might be).
And then we just started going around and around in circles.

This isn't a dig at anyone even though I'm going to quote certain complaints, but I find that it eventually sucks all life and enjoyment out of music to endlessly nitpick at it.
Every pop/rock singer/songwriter has their strengths and their weaknesses. The weaknesses are as much what makes them unique as their strengths. Certainly the weaknesses should be discussed right alongside the strengths... it's all part of the package deal... but more often than not, it seems the former is all anyone emphasizes.
To the point that I eventually scratch my head and think, "well, now that we've heard so often how her lyrics, her style of dress, her performances and her voice are all currently laughable, embarrassing, trite and rote, what on Earth is left that you DO like? What's left to actually enjoy?"

I also think sometimes the expectation level is unreasonable. This woman has officially released around 130 songs... the law of averages state that they can't all be a "Landslide" or "Trouble In Shangri-La."
In fact, the amount of songs that people seem to vehemently dislike is damn-near infinitesimal when you consider the sheer number of songs which she's released over the years... and yet, those few songs are all people ever seem to talk about. They dwell on them like an old personal insult they've never been able to get out of their head.

But my opinion is not a popular one, and I realize this. If I dare mention anything about appreciating Stevie's weaknesses right alongside her strengths while not acting as if said weaknesses are the end of the world, or about respecting her ability to make her own decisions, I end up defending the opinion for eight pages.

I was going to wrap up with some little attempt at humour, but it's nearly 3am and I'm tired. So that's that.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by ricohv

Somewhere in this thread I just really lost interest as it is all so subjective arguing the merits of someone against other poets or singers or blah blah blah.

Ricoh

me too, And I was the one who started this thread

Brian j.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by estranged4life

me too, And I was the one who started this thread

Sorry, Brian... I do apologize for my participation in hijacking your thread.

Maybe I can blame it on my local PBS stations for not airing the concert so I could talk about it too... thereby forcing me to engage in a tired old discussion.

[amber]

You know what makes the whole thing easy for me? (And, I don't like all of stevie's songs by any stretch of the imagination) is that, what i do like, is so magnificent, and so unique, that i don't even care to compare. And the songs i like that are less than stellar? They're still so unique, to me, cause of her voice, rhythm, sensibility, that it's extremely compelling. Who else can have a cack voice and use it in such a magnificent, strange manner? No one. Who plays with phrasing and improv in such a way? no one. And, her songs i don't like? At least she's still singing them, and hey, no one hits a home run every time. But also (and this has been debated before) it seems to me that someone with so much constant touring, with 2 bands, for 30 years (sometimes touring more heavily than others) touring, and recording constantly...well, i don't think there is another person with that level of output. And with that level of output? I admire her all the more...yeah, she trashed her voice, she was touring constantly FOR YEARS with two bands. I really think, OVERALL, with all the years, counting charisma, output, vocal gymnastics, vocal variance, and media friendly saturation...well, that she's the STAR. yep, she's the star, alright...No one IS stevie...no one else, no matter how well they sing, or their range, can ever be like Stevie. NO ONE. All the other people everyone has mentioned have, maybe, more skills or whatevah. But - they don't have Stevie's special brand of magnificence, and i don't think anyone ever will. the whole package. nope.
That is all, thanks much.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by amber

well, that she's the STAR. yep, she's the star, alright...No one IS stevie...no one else, no matter how well they sing, or their range, can ever be like Stevie. NO ONE. All the other people everyone has mentioned have, maybe, more skills or whatevah. But - they don't have Stevie's special brand of magnificence, and i don't think anyone ever will. the whole package. nope.

This is why I think she is respected- even to the level of Joni and Bob Dylan. She really is the "Queen of Rock and Roll". I can't think of anyone else that is more deserving of that title. Music is what she wanted to do with her life and she has done it consistantly for the last 35ish years. I love her to death.

But I still want her to be good. Having things phoned in is just not enough for me- nor the idea of releasing sub-par material. That's just me.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I feel Stevie's lyrical foibles are just as important to the appreciation of her music as her moments of lyrical brilliance. I even explained why (because it humanizes her in a way that is lacking in many other songwriters, how ever perfect their lyrical turn of phrases might be).

We kind of differ here. I don't particularly need my artists humanized. I want them to be brilliant. That inspires me. I have friends for humanizing. Stevie is plenty human to me. She's a nice lady, and a very talented one at that. I love it when she strikes me speechless. If I didn't like her so much, I wouldn't expect such greatness out of her.

This isn't a dig at anyone even though I'm going to quote certain complaints, but I find that it eventually sucks all life and enjoyment out of music to endlessly nitpick at it.

And I find it increases my understanding and appreciation. Go figure !
Too many classes in literary criticism and art history in college ? Perhaps.

"well, now that we've heard so often how her lyrics, her style of dress, her performances and her voice are all currently laughable, embarrassing, trite and rote, what on Earth is left that you DO like? What's left to actually enjoy?"

Since you're responding to me, I can only take this in reference to myself. As far as that goes, I may rant and rave about certain shortcomings of Stevie's career and work when I am flabbergasted by what such a genius let slip under her radar. Absolutely. On the flip side, I have done my share of hooting and hollering about what is wonderful. I am just as passionate about that. It's kind of a given - why else woukld I be so shocked at the mis-steps ? My attempts at intelligent exchanges about this artist are not character assassination. It's a friggin' dialogue.

I also think sometimes the expectation level is unreasonable...the amount of songs that people seem to vehemently dislike is damn-near infinitesimal...and yet, those few songs are all people ever seem to talk about. They dwell on them like an old personal insult they've never been able to get out of their head.

Not me. I'll beat a song to death to make a point, certainly. Actually, I don't think my expectations are unreasonable...I expect greatness from someone who has exhibited it in the past. I know she's capable of it. So maybe it is a personal insult when it's bad...

If I dare mention anything about appreciating Stevie's weaknesses right alongside her strengths while not acting as if said weaknesses are the end of the world, or about respecting her ability to make her own decisions, I end up defending the opinion for eight pages.

Well, welcome to my world. I can express horror at what I consider sub-par work from an artist I consider capable of brilliance, and it is implied that I think she is worthless on all levels.
End of the world ?
I may be a homo, but I am not that much of a drama queen. Though we all did gush and spaz out like it was Armageddon when Beautiful Child was in the last set....
There is no defense issue here. I really look at this in a larger scope. Call me a frustrated intellectual, but I think that discussing what works and what doesn't in someones art is illuminating and fascinating. It doesn't hurt my feelings or get me caught up personally. And I don't ever feel the need to protect or defend Stevie. Her career does that for itself. I do, however, enjoy explaining my own thought processes, and trying to understand other ones.

[David]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Every pop/rock singer/songwriter has their strengths and their weaknesses. The weaknesses are as much what makes them unique as their strengths. Certainly the weaknesses should be discussed right alongside the strengths... it's all part of the package deal... but more often than not, it seems the former is all anyone emphasizes.

Come on, Stew. You know that's not true. That point does not stand up to scrutiny. I've been listening to Fleetwood Mac fans voice their opinions for going on three decades now. I know what I've seen, & I know what I've heard. Stevie has had -- & continues to have -- the vast majority of most fans' love & admiration, light years ahead of any other single person in the group. To claim otherwise is just bunk. To take this stance repeatedly that she is the target of so much fan resentment or hatred or whatever is absolutely ridiculous. She is beloved throughout the FM fan world & well beyond. The rock press hasn't thought much of her over the years, & a very small number of Macheads have been vocal about their dislike of or disappointment in her, but that's all. To claim otherwise is to peddle an agenda of some sort -- something about how the demonstrably small amount of criticism Stevie gets from a tiny corner of the fan world just proves how people are A) unable to feel, or B) grinding an ax. Go bring up any Mac message board, bulletin board, newsgroup. Dig through the archives & read as much or as little of it as you have the time for. You won't see a predominance of Stevie Nicks hatred; you will see Stevie Nicks love. You will see Stevie praised for being the greatest songwriter, the greatest performer, the greatest singer, the nicest big star in the music business, the sweetest to her fans, the prettiest, & the most generous. That's been the case for decades, Stew. I've seen it. The adverse criticism from the scattered few doesn't amount to anything when compared with the outpouring of love for her since 1977.

In fact, the amount of songs that people seem to vehemently dislike is damn-near infinitesimal when you consider the sheer number of songs which she's released over the years... and yet, those few songs are all people ever seem to talk about. They dwell on them like an old personal insult they've never been able to get out of their head.

But to claim that this is some sort of majority -- or even widespread -- view is to set up a straw man argument.

But my opinion is not a popular one, and I realize this.

Actually, your opinion is a popular one, & you know it. With all respect, JS, you're being disingenuous. You're creating bogeymen where none -- or only a few -- exist.

If I dare mention anything about appreciating Stevie's weaknesses right alongside her strengths while not acting as if said weaknesses are the end of the world, or about respecting her ability to make her own decisions, I end up defending the opinion for eight pages.

That's because the same three or four people on this particular board engage you in discussion on these topics.

I was going to wrap up with some little attempt at humour, but it's nearly 3am and I'm tired. So that's that.

Well, get some sleep, pal! As you drift off into restful slumber, comfort yourself with the demonstrable fact that Stevie is beloved like few other current rock stars, & that her particular appeal to fans shows absolutely no signs of waning at this point.

[Moony]

Originally Posted by David

Once you set those as virtues in & of themselves, where does it logically proceed? Why not be done with the "poetry" completely -- with even its minimal semblance of formalism, even in a Stevie Nicks song -- & just come out to California to drive the freeways. You'll hear plenty of raw, emotional, & off-the-cuff language from some of the other drivers.

Yeah - especially from me! ROAD RAGE

Ok so this thread was quite interesting to read. I found myself agreeing with points made by both "sides." All I can really say is I genuinely love Stevie and love her music, however, she does put out some sub-par songs at times. But I don't dwell on it. You gotta take the good with the bad, right?

Kudos to Johnny & Sparky for such passionate convictions (And everyone else too )

Bottom Line: WE ALL LOVE STEVIE.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

With all due respect, it is a little unfair to compare Big Yellow Taxi to Sister Honey I would, however, put HAEWAFY up against it - even WITH the poet priedt of nothing line (hey - its grown on me LOL). Personally, I like Sister Honey though

Just as it's unfair to compare the level of respect there is for artists like Joni Mitchell or Bob Dylan to Stevie. Mitchell and Dylan have solidified themselves in critic circles and public circles as two of the best that music has to offer, Stevie has not. When people say that Stevie has the same level of respect, it boggles the mind. Whereas you would put something like HAEWAFY next to Big Yellow Taxi, most people would laugh you right out of the room.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Just as it's unfair to compare the level of respect there is for artists like Joni Mitchell or Bob Dylan to Stevie. Mitchell and Dylan have solidified themselves in critic circles and public circles as two of the best that music has to offer, Stevie has not. When people say that Stevie has the same level of respect, it boggles the mind. Whereas you would put something like HAEWAFY next to Big Yellow Taxi, most people would laugh you right out of the room.

Who gives a ****e who laughs at me - it is my opinion and that is all that matters in the end. I mean some critics and people love Yoko Ono and all of her "art." Again, you are trying to assert your and other opinons on what I and others think is good if not great. It is an unwinnable argument because the "more people agree with me" argument is fallacious

As for the level of respect - wasn't it Bette M. that just called La Nicks the voice of a generation last week at her concert Many Many like her - yet you dismiss them so easily. I think you are being purposefully argumentative