Spoiler-Chris Isaak-Christmas!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Actually, I think she does- they are just different animals. I believe Stevie is greatly respected. Her art is evocative emotion. Joni's is skillful imagery. Bob Dylan's is universal communication. They're all great, they just do different things.

Stevie was on the right track for awhile, but then her train derailed. Releasing albums like Rock A Little and Street Angel only served to fan the flames of the crash. There is nowhere near the respect for the author of "Sister Honey" that there is for the authors of "Big Yellow Taxi" and "Tombstone Blues." To me, that's like saying VC Andrews is respected like Dickens. She's managed to put herself back on track a bit in recent years, but the damage is done. If anything, she's respected as one of the female pioneers of rock, nothing else, honestly.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

stop being so friggin' worried about justifying her and excusing her to your friends, and just enjoy the music.

Pot, meet kettle.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

When it comes to pop/rock music, I find that the more something is labored over and perfected, the less it affects me.

How in the world did you manage to enjoy TISL and SYW so much?

Originally Posted by The Tower

Exactly. I think Stevie has run out of stuff to write about.

Tell the man what he's won.

She hasn't really done anything original in years. It's all been pilfered from her old songs. There are only so many times one can write about dreams and the like before it starts to cloy on the listener. She's been using the same inspiration (i.e. Lindsey and ****ty boyfriends) for decades and it's old hat. When she gets away from that garbage, she positively shines. The song TISL is a glaring example of that.

Originally Posted by sparky

If only she could apologize to herself for stuff like Street Angel. Oh, wait, I think she already did that.

Anyone with a shred of self-respect would apologize for letting that beast roam free.

[strandinthewind]

With all due respect, it is a little unfair to compare Big Yellow Taxi to Sister Honey I would, however, put HAEWAFY up against it - even WITH the poet priedt of nothing line (hey - its grown on me LOL). Personally, I like Sister Honey though

[David]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Emily Dickinson isn't Pablo Neruda, but they're both still poets, no?

They're both poets by virtue of their accomplishments.

Photography isn't as laborious as oil painting, but they're both forms of art, correct?

They're both forms of art. I couldn't tell you whether photography is as laborious as oil painting, being neither a photographer nor a painter.

I don't compare pop music to classical music, and I don't compare pop lyrics to sonnets, but I consider Stevie, Christine and Lindsey (as well as Peter, Danny, Bob, etc.), as artists and poets in their own right.

I think my post was really directed (indirectly, that is) at the dozens of fans who say Stevie is the greatest poet who ever lived, or something equally goofy.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

. . . I think my post was really directed (indirectly, that is) at the dozens of fans who say Stevie is the greatest poet who ever lived, or something equally goofy.

Well, she is pretty good at least to me - I would put Landslide, Rhainnon, Sara, Gypsy, TISL, and a few others up there against some of the better poets I have known. But, that is just me I guess.

AND - I can assure you photography is MUCH easier than painting - although I suck at both

[David]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

With all due respect, it is a little unfair to compare Big Yellow Taxi to Sister Honey I would, however, put HAEWAFY up against it - even WITH the poet priedt of nothing line (hey - its grown on me LOL). Personally, I like Sister Honey though

"Sister Honey" is Stevie's sublimest achievement. I would rank it in depth, rhetorical excellence, & sheer emotional power with the Book of Common Prayer.

[David]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, she is pretty good at least to me

She's one of my favorites! She's probably the greatest poet of the 19th & 20th centuries, but she has pretty stiff competition from the 16th century.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

"Sister Honey" is Stevie's sublimest achievement. I would rank it in depth, rhetorical excellence, & sheer emotional power with the Book of Common Prayer.

I can remember JAMMING to it in college. Even now, when it comes on randonly on my comp. - I totally rock out. I think one reviewer appropriately called it a "funky little screamer"

Stevie is like Baskin Robbins and their 31 flavors - something for everyone

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

She's one of my favorites! She's probably the greatest poet of the 19th & 20th centuries, but she has pretty stiff competition from the 16th century.

Well, ya HAD to bring those up didn't ya But, I agree. I would also put Dickinson over her, but I LOVE the latter. Plus, I love that I can sing "Because I could not stop for death - he kindly stopped for me," as well as most of her other poems, to the tune of Gilligan's Island

[ontheEdgeof17]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I can remember JAMMING to it in college. Even now, when it comes on randonly on my comp. - I totally rock out. I think one reviewer appropriately called it a "funky little screamer"

Stevie is like Baskin Robbins and their 31 flavors - something for everyone

It's hard not to like "Can we still be friends....etc". I don't think she wrote that part, but it's still hella good. Great tempo and lyrics all in the same bridge.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

Pot, meet kettle.

I actually started writing an explanation of that comment when I initially made it, because I knew that I'd be introduced to the kettle (I also knew exactly who would be doing the introductions ).

The difference though, as I see it, is that I'm having these conversations here with other Stevie fans, as an attempt to explain why I don't feel the need to hand-wring over every clunky line. But I can, with complete honesty, say that I have NEVER tried to justify or excuse my love of Stevie's music to any of my friends. Ever.

It's the arrogant side of me, I guess. You either accept and appreciate me and the things I like, or you don't. And if you don't, it's your problem, not mine. I've got bigger fish to fry.

Originally Posted by dissention

How in the world did you manage to enjoy TISL and SYW so much?

Again, I'm talking about my opinion regarding lyrics. The instrumentation and production that surrounds it is something altogether different for me. That can be polished. It fact, I prefer that it is, because I can't stand to listen to something that sounds like it was recorded by a bunch of kids in their neighbor's garage.
But I prefer the lyrics to be raw, emotional, and off the cuff as much as possible.

Originally Posted by dissention

She hasn't really done anything original in years. It's all been pilfered from her old songs. There are only so many times one can write about dreams and the like before it starts to cloy on the listener. She's been using the same inspiration (i.e. Lindsey and ****ty boyfriends) for decades and it's old hat.

There's a very simple solution for that: Give up on her. Move on. Go listen to someone who you do find interesting and who you do feel still lives up to their potential.
Limit yourself to listening to Stevie's songs only up until "Gypsy," and then stop right there if you think her music has gone downhill since then and that she hasn't had anything original to say.

Either that or you just have to continue wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin' (and gnashin' and wringin' and bitchin' and moanin') about something that you have no control over.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Either that or you just have to continue wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin' (and gnashin' and wringin' and bitchin' and moanin') about something that you have no control over.

laugh: Actually, Diss has said he liked TISL (the song) and Silver Girl. So, there must be some light in his tunnel (vision )

[David]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Again, I'm talking about my opinion regarding lyrics. The instrumentation and production that surrounds it is something altogether different for me. That can be polished. It fact, I prefer that it is, because I can't stand to listen to something that sounds like it was recorded by a bunch of kids in their neighbor's garage.
But I prefer the lyrics to be raw, emotional, and off the cuff as much as possible.

Once you set those as virtues in & of themselves, where does it logically proceed? Why not be done with the "poetry" completely -- with even its minimal semblance of formalism, even in a Stevie Nicks song -- & just come out to California to drive the freeways. You'll hear plenty of raw, emotional, & off-the-cuff language from some of the other drivers.

Of course, we're all guilty of the fallacy of confusing the content with the process. We're all drawing the mostly unsupported conclusion that Stevie's "rawness" & emotionalism are the result of penning her words immediately or letting them spill from her pen, unfettered by revision or any additional attention whatsoever. But we don't have anywhere near a complete idea of her process. For all we know, she worked on the "Rhiannon" words for months, twisting & pulling & replacing & mulling over, etc. The appearance of "rawness" might be as carefully tooled as a jet engine. The aesthetic response we have from a poem can't automatically be applied to the poet's process willy-nilly. Ginsberg's "Howl" sure produces that sense of immediacy & rawness in a reader, but it would be a mistake to conclude from that response that the poet didn't revise thoroughly, that he didn't calculate that effect, because in fact he did.

(However, it's my personal view that Stevie generally just grabs lines from her journals & slaps them down, which is probably what creates the triteness, woolliness & deafness to idiom that I often see in those lyrics. My hunch is that she essentially just copy-pastes from her journals onto the lyric sheet, without bothering much to form a more coherent expression. Still, if I love "The Nightmare" -- & I definitely do -- I can't ipso facto conclude that it was written any differently. It may have been, but it may not have been.)

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

You were discussing the conveyance of the emotion of loneliness. I feel Stevie's expressions of loneliness are warmer and more relatable, which is an aspect of her writing that I had already stated I respond to. You posted a lyrical passage by Joni in comparison, that, as you said, was meant to be cool and aloof.

So, to me, it's not an accurate comparison.

This is hysterical. I am not talking about tone. I am talking about the use of language. "I'm lonely, I'm lonely, I'm lonely" is warm ? Is poetic ? I am thrilled that you respond to it. But to call a line like that poetry is like calling Stevie tall.

But assuming she's proud of every other thing she's written, aside from the Klonopin material, does she still need to apologize to herself? Or should she be embarrassed about these songs because we say she should?

I don't suspect she apologized, per se. She just admitted most of that work was not worthwhile and she didn't listen to it.

But I'm not talking about polishing something. I'm talking about writing lyrics and then obsessing over the way you expressed yourself, and then editing them countless times.

I can't see the difference here. Is it artistically inauthentic to rework a phrase to make it sound better ? Obsessing ? Countless times ? It is preosterous to suggest rewriting a lyric or a line in a book is tantamount to gutting it of all meaning. Art doesn't fall out of people like apples off a tree. That's where you and I really differ. That belief right there.

"Gosh, maybe I shouldn't have said 'dreams reoccur in my solitude'... maybe I should have compared myself to Morpheus instead. No, no, that won't work because then I'll just sound like a pompous git. Oh hell, where's that damn rhyming dictionary?"

That is actually not a bad line, of course she is using the word dream for the 400th time, but at least it's coupled with a new word.
I am not actually suggesting that Stevie use a rhyming dictionary for all her songs, but for God's sake how about expanding the vocabulary ? I suppose that would be somehow violating her muse and selling out. Education is the bastardization of all creative authenticy ? Following this logic she would be a more pure artist if she were banging on a rock. It is puzzling to me that you interpret rewriting and refining art as second guessing and not following one's artisitic impulses. Especially when we have all seen the evolution of Stevie's demos - the ones that did radically change lyric wise and music wise over the years. Are the evolved products phony and less meaningful ? I don't think so. Ultimately, we don't know how much each song was changed from inception to release. However, I would bet anything most of the lyrics lately aren't getting a whole lot of second looks. I think she used to concentrate more on them.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by The Tower

I would LOVE to hear it! When did they do "What About Love" recently? I haven't heard that one live in a long, long time.

A pal sent me a recent cd from the last tour. I wish I knew the city !

I do like Travelogue. "Refuge of the Roads" and "For the Roses" were the highlights for me. I preferred Both Sides Now, though. Seeing her at the Greek Theatre for that tour was amazing- simply amazing.

My envy...Ugh. Lucky dog.

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, she is pretty good at least to me - I would put Landslide, Rhainnon, Sara, Gypsy, TISL, and a few others up there against some of the better poets I have known. But, that is just me I guess.

AND - I can assure you photography is MUCH easier than painting - although I suck at both

Take "Sara" out of your list and I'd agree.