Spoiler-Chris Isaak-Christmas!

[strandinthewind]

Not to thro gasoline on the fire, but Stevie has often said that sings like Rhiannon, Landslide, etc. just flowed through her as if some spirit had possessed her. Those are widely considered to be her best work - yet there apparently was no poetic labor

But, I do agree to an extent that polish takes time - and IMO she to these ears could polish a little better - e.g. "that made me stronger - it made me hold on to me" - great sentiment IMO said in a trite and Hallmark greeting card way. But, IMO it all is so subjective and many people love the latter song. So, who am I to keep them down

AND ANOTHER THING all of my dress and other parodies flowed out of me with little to know effort due to two things: 1. I am brilliant and 2. someone possessed me

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by sparky

Warmth in a song about a character that is isolated and a situation that is about consistently missing the mark ? Why on earth would a writer talk warmly about loneliness, desolation, and emotional ennui ?
I don't consider the language and tone to be the message.

Then the original comparison is flawed.

Originally Posted by sparky

I have had to justify Stevie and make excuses for her to so many of my friends I have about pulled a muscle over the years. I don't have the patience for it anymore. It makes me nuts.

Well, there ya go, Sparkalah... stop being so friggin' worried about justifying her and excusing her to your friends, and just enjoy the music.
Hopefully Stevie will someday apologize to you personally for embarrassing you in front of your friends.

Originally Posted by sparky

The "icy perfection" you speak of is puzzling to me. It sounds like you think that a piece of music that is without obvious flaws is by definition emotionally disconnected. Is Beethoven icy ?

Beethoven wrote classicial compositions... I would expect him to labor more over his work than a pop writer would.
Classical music and pop music are two vastly different beasts in my opinion. And I'm sorry but as much as I love Stevie, I don't put her on the same level as someone like Beethoven. I don't put any pop/rock songwriter on that level, no matter how brilliant they may be.

When it comes to pop/rock music, I find that the more something is labored over and perfected, the less it affects me.
I read great literature because it stimulates my mind. I listen to pop music because it stimulates my emotions.

Originally Posted by sparky

Or is Joni just icy ? Maybe it's the Blue eyes and natural blonde hair ?

You're right... maybe if she had big, brown dow-eyes it would sway my opinion.

[amber]

"who's johnny, she said, and smiled in her special way. Johnny, she said, you know i love you..."
I've been watching this thread, and just have to say to the Don.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Not to thro gasoline on the fire, but Stevie has often said that sings like Rhiannon, Landslide, etc. just flowed through her as if some spirit had possessed her. Those are widely considered to be her best work - yet there apparently was no poetic labor

Of course that happens. It happens to every writer. It's a miracle when it happens. It just doesn't happen often. I think Stevie started to believe that everything that flowed out of her was up to that level.

But, I do agree to an extent that polish takes time - and IMO she to these ears could polish a little better - e.g. "that made me stronger - it made me hold on to me" - great sentiment IMO said in a trite and Hallmark greeting card way. But, IMO it all is so subjective and many people love the latter song. So, who am I to keep them down

Agreed. A lot of people love it and God Bless Em. Just hope Homegirl doesn't take it to heart though.

AND ANOTHER THING all of my dress and other parodies flowed out of me with little to know effort due to two things: 1. I am brilliant and 2. someone possessed me

Indeed. The dress parodies just HAPPEN, don't they ? I think I have been consistently possessed by the wayward spirit of the missing Darklinensuit.

[strandinthewind]

Yes, alas poor Jake - I knew him well (to Jake if you are a readin' this!!!!)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by David

I'm occasionally critical of Stevie's lyric-writing (she's not a poet in my book, but she is a great pop singer). Christine isn't a great lyricist, either, but of course she doesn't call herself a poet or a sage. She says she's a "pretty basic love-song writer," which puts her about on par with her bandmates, & with Howard Dietz, Irving Caesar, Lorenz Hart, etc.

Originally Posted by David

That's what art is -- that's what poetry is. It's fiendishly difficult. Art isn't the experience itself; it's the experience formalized, given structure.

Emily Dickinson isn't Pablo Neruda, but they're both still poets, no?

Photography isn't as laborious as oil painting, but they're both forms of art, correct?

I don't compare pop music to classical music, and I don't compare pop lyrics to sonnets, but I consider Stevie, Christine and Lindsey (as well as Peter, Danny, Bob, etc.), as artists and poets in their own right.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Then the original comparison is flawed.

Huh ? The original comparison was about imagery and using language in an interesting way.

Well, there ya go, Sparkalah... stop being so friggin' worried about justifying her and excusing her to your friends, and just enjoy the music.
Hopefully Stevie will someday apologize to you personally for embarrassing you in front of your friends.

Oh, I have. Apologize to me ? If only she could apologize to herself for stuff like Street Angel. Oh, wait, I think she already did that. Have fun, tell the world !

Beethoven wrote classicial compositions... I would expect him to labor more over his work than a pop writer would.

Classical, shmassical. If an artist takes their work seriously, they should be laboring over it. That is the kind of argument people use when trying to prove pop music isn't important.

When it comes to pop/rock music, I find that the more something is labored over and perfected, the less it affects me.
I read great literature because it stimulates my mind. I listen to pop music because it stimulates my emotions.

Really ? You think TISL the song wasn't labored over and perfected ? Sara ? Storms ? Lindsey's solo material ? All of Lindsey's SYW material ?

You're right... maybe if she had big, brown dow-eyes it would sway my opinion.

Well, and a hairy chest.

[strandinthewind]

Are you two ready to kiss and make up

[sparky]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Sorry, I was at Diz-nee-land all last weekend and sick from the flu yesterday and today, so I'm just getting caught up on this delicious thread. Thank gawd Sparky was here to convey all the stuff I probably woulda said anyway. Here's my highlights:

Disneyland ? I am so sorry. How traumatic. Glad to stand in, buddy.

Then, holy hell, listen to anything from The Wild Heart! Her voice is completely breaking down. I love all the **** she does on that album. "Enchanted", "Wild Heart" (where she hits that high E flat), and "Nothing Ever Changes" are killer! But then slide into "Rock A Little" and it's all over. I don't think her voice ever recovered from that slide. Personally, I blame the cigarettes!!

Yup. That E flat is never happening again. Even though it was a little screechy, it was impressive. Let's not forget the coke - which is hellish for vocal cords, according to a physician I know.

This will be printed on my tombstone. Complacency sucks ass.

IN LIFE AS IN ART.

There is a difference for looking for beauty within things and striving and/or desiring for beauty to exist. Very rarely does anything live up to my expectations, but that does not mean that I'm going to stop trying to get them there.

Bingo.

I love it! I have always considered Stevie to be the greatest communicator of song emotion. The [I]greatest[/I

When the material is up to snuff, no doubt about it.

Not even close. Ann's range was more limited in the 70's than it is now. Her voice really came into it's own in the mid 80's and has pretty much stayed there ever sense. She doesn't shy away from ANYTHING. The F# killer note she still sings on "Alone" is higher than any note she sang on the first three Heart albums from the 70's.

And can we just ruminate on the high C in What About Love ? And the fact that it happens live. Wallowing in it. I listened to it three times today.

Actually, I think she does- they are just different animals. I believe Stevie is greatly respected. Her art is evocative emotion. Joni's is skillful imagery. Bob Dylan's is universal communication. They're all great, they just do different things.

I don't think the respect is the same, but I think Stevie is more passionately loved by her fans. The only reason I always dwell on this little fact is that she is SO about speaking of herself as if she is in that league.

Prior to joining FM, Stevie had quite a high-ish alto at 23 years of age. It only took her thirteen years to trash her voice and shave off that upper level. Female voices actually get better with age and are at their prime in the mid-forties. Stevie's voice was a shell of it's former self at forty.

Oh, man. I think she did it in 10.

I absolutely LOVE Hejira. It's my favorite Joni album.

Well, have you heard Travelogue ? The new versions of the old songs are better, IMO. I love her older voice.

When Loreena McKennitt runs out of stuff to write about, she goes on the Orient Express and hangs out in Morocco, Turkey and Tunisia to discover the journeys of her Celtic roots.

This would be feeding yourself and growing artistically, so OLD SCHOOL.

First of all, the song "Amelia" isn't about "aloof perfection". It's about loneliness and helplessness and fear of the unknown. Joni has expressed her flaws greater than any other songwriter out there, in my opinion. "Warmth" is subjective. Not all of Stevie's songs are "warm" (thank gawd). "Planets of the Universe" is just about as icy cold as you can get- but that song is fantastic.

True, true, and true.

PREACH IT SISTAH!!!! TESTIFY!!!!!!!!!

Sparky ain't a sister to nobody. But I am still tempted to ask you to marry me.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by sparky

Huh ? The original comparison was about imagery and using language in an interesting way.

You were discussing the conveyance of the emotion of loneliness. I feel Stevie's expressions of loneliness are warmer and more relatable, which is an aspect of her writing that I had already stated I respond to. You posted a lyrical passage by Joni in comparison, that, as you said, was meant to be cool and aloof.

So, to me, it's not an accurate comparison.

Originally Posted by sparky

Oh, I have. Apologize to me ? If only she could apologize to herself for stuff like Street Angel. Oh, wait, I think she already did that. Have fun, tell the world !

But assuming she's proud of every other thing she's written, aside from the Klonopin material, does she still need to apologize to herself? Or should she be embarrassed about these songs because we say she should?

Originally Posted by sparky

Classical, shmassical. If an artist takes their work seriously, they should be laboring over it. That is the kind of argument people use when trying to prove pop music isn't important.

Pop music is important to me, but I still don't put pop/rock songwriters in league with classicial composers.

Originally Posted by sparky

Really ? You think TISL the song wasn't labored over and perfected ? Sara ? Storms ? Lindsey's solo material ? All of Lindsey's SYW material ?

Well, they're not raw demos... any idiot can see that. So of course they've been perfected in their own way. But I'm not talking about polishing something. I'm talking about writing lyrics and then obsessing over the way you expressed yourself, and then editing them countless times.
"Gosh, maybe I shouldn't have said 'dreams reoccur in my solitude'... maybe I should have compared myself to Morpheus instead. No, no, that won't work because then I'll just sound like a pompous git. Oh hell, where's that damn rhyming dictionary?"

[takenbythesky]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

"Gosh, maybe I shouldn't have said 'dreams reoccur in my solitude'... maybe I should have compared myself to Morpheus instead. No, no, that won't work because then I'll just sound like a pompous git. Oh hell, where's that damn rhyming dictionary?"

Danny Goldberg stated in Enchanted's liner notes that Stevie never ever had a rhyming dictionary. I understand that you certainly know that, Mr. Stew. I just thought I ought to add this bit of info to reinforce your point.
-Justin
P.S. One of my favorite Stevie lines ever...

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by The Tower

There is a difference for looking for beauty within things and striving and/or desiring for beauty to exist. Very rarely does anything live up to my expectations, but that does not mean that I'm going to stop trying to get them there.

I worry about making the world a better place... changing minds, bettering situations. That's when I care about something not living up to my expectations.
I don't sweat what I consider to be the small stuff, like a clunky lyric. Music is something I choose to ENJOY, not obsess over perfecting. It's a simpler beauty.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by takenbythesky

Danny Goldberg stated in Enchanted's liner notes that Stevie never ever had a rhyming dictionary. I understand that you certainly know that, Mr. Stew. I just thought I ought to add this bit of info to reinforce your point.
-Justin
P.S. One of my favorite Stevie lines ever...

I did know it, but I'm glad you reinforced that point.
I mentioned a rhyming dictionary because Sparky suggested that Stevie is in desperate need of one. Of course I got rebuffed when I suggested that that would make her just like every other songwriter out there.

"That Made Me Stronger" isn't necessarily my favorite song... but I do love some of the lyrics, especially that particular one.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by sparky

And can we just ruminate on the high C in What About Love ? And the fact that it happens live. Wallowing in it. I listened to it three times today.

I would LOVE to hear it! When did they do "What About Love" recently? I haven't heard that one live in a long, long time.

Originally Posted by sparky

Well, have you heard Travelogue ? The new versions of the old songs are better, IMO. I love her older voice.

I do like Travelogue. "Refuge of the Roads" and "For the Roses" were the highlights for me. I preferred Both Sides Now, though. Seeing her at the Greek Theatre for that tour was amazing- simply amazing.

Originally Posted by sparky

But I am still tempted to ask you to marry me.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I worry about making the world a better place... changing minds, bettering situations. That's when I care about something not living up to my expectations.
I don't sweat what I consider to be the small stuff, like a clunky lyric. Music is something I choose to ENJOY, not obsess over perfecting. It's a simpler beauty.

To me, music is the pinnacle of the life experience. So, I always want it to be great. That's why I'm picky. That's why I despise most rap/hip-hop ('cept Mary J. Blige- I looovvvvve her) and all this new "pop" crap. It's all soulless and dead.

I'm all for making the world a better place. However, most of that effort goes into quests that take quite a bit of time and quite a lot of energy from quite a lot of people. Most of that stuff I have very little direct control over, so I can understand that it takes 20 to 30 years to get gay marriage on the table.

Stevie has the ability to write great stuff. She has the ability to make the decision to mix it up a little bit and breathe life into their setlists. She has the ability to sing with conviction. However, she chooses not to do these things so many times- and with all those abilities available to her with just a thought. She doesn't need money. She doesn't need publicity. She doesn't need a record company. She doesn't need any of that stuff to take "her" at 56 years old and really do something special.

So, you can see how easy it is for me to want her to live up to my expectations. It's not that damn hard. Now, getting the US of A to get over its problem with homosexuality- that's hard!