Tusk Survivor - FINAL ROUND

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by dissention

And that's the thing. Stevie is NOT Bonnie Tyler, she's NOT Elton John, Rod Stewart, or Phil Collins; she's better than all of them. That's why when she releases garbage like Imperial Hotel, Two Kinds of Love, and Jane, I'm shocked at how terrible it can truly be.

You simply can't compare an artist like Stevie to artists like Bonnie Tyler or Rod Stewart because you can't compare Sable On Blonde or Trouble In Shangri-La to Total Eclipse or Do Ya Think I'm Sexy. I mean, C'MON.

it's like comparing apples and oranged flavored vomit

[diamondsnake]

Originally Posted by dissention

And that's the thing. Stevie is NOT Bonnie Tyler, she's NOT Elton John, Rod Stewart, or Phil Collins; she's better than all of them. That's why when she releases garbage like Imperial Hotel, Two Kinds of Love, and Jane, I'm shocked at how terrible it can truly be.

You simply can't compare an artist like Stevie to artists like Bonnie Tyler or Rod Stewart because you can't compare Sable On Blonde or Trouble In Shangri-La to Total Eclipse or Do Ya Think I'm Sexy. I mean, C'MON.

Imperial Hotel rocks my world!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

And that's the thing. Stevie is NOT Bonnie Tyler, she's NOT Elton John, Rod Stewart, or Phil Collins; she's better than all of them. That's why when she releases garbage like Imperial Hotel, Two Kinds of Love, and Jane, I'm shocked at how terrible it can truly be.

I know full well that Stevie is not Bonnie Tyler, et al. She's also not Cher or Tina Turner or Debbie Harry, but that sure doesn't stop folks from bringing those ladies up in relation to Stevie.
My point is that "crap" is a relative term.

I've heard what I would call utter crap, and it's not any of the "garbage" songs you named.

Are they as good as some of Stevie's earlier work? That's highly debatable.
I'd personally have to say no, in regards to those particular songs.
But the implication is always that there's nothing of value to be found in them, and, on that, I whole-heartedly disagree.
In my eyes, they all have merit. They're all essential components in Stevie's oeuvre.

And, with my deepest apologies, I simply don't have the unrealistic expectation for a songwriter to match or top what I consider to be their best songs, with every single attempt.

It's the natural ebb and flow of things. I expect to be bowled over by certain songs, and underwhelmed by others. It's bound to happen.

I'm risking being accused of making this a Lindsey vs. Stevie thing with this comment, but Lindsey is the quickest example of someone who releases material only very sporadically, so here goes:
Even with the great amount of years that go between Lindsey's releases, there are still songs he puts out there, that leave me cold.

There's nothing horrible about that. As I said, it's bound to happen. And, obviously, it's bound to happen whether someone releases new songs every couple of years or every seven years.

When I hear a song that I'm not crazy about, I simply trust that another will come along in a few minutes, that I will be crazy about.
No major letdowns at some songs not living up to my demands. Or towards the artist for including material they happen to like.

At best, certain songs will hit me where I live and rattle me to my core. At worst, I'll have 4 minutes of an "ok" song.
That's all I expect, and I haven't been disappointed yet.

[diamondsnake]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I know full well that Stevie is not Bonnie Tyler, et al. She's also not Cher or Tina Turner or Debbie Harry, but that sure doesn't stop folks from bringing those ladies up in relation to Stevie.
My point is that "crap" is a relative term.

I've heard what I would call utter crap, and it's not any of the "garbage" songs you named.

Are they as good as some of Stevie's earlier work? That's highly debatable.
I'd personally have to say no, in regards to those particular songs.
But the implication is always that there's nothing of value to be found in them, and, on that, I whole-heartedly disagree.
In my eyes, they all have merit. They're all essential components in Stevie's oeuvre.

And, with my deepest apologies, I simply don't have the unrealistic expectation for a songwriter to match or top what I consider to be their best songs, with every single attempt.

It's the natural ebb and flow of things. I expect to be bowled over by certain songs, and underwhelmed by others. It's bound to happen.

I'm risking being accused of making this a Lindsey vs. Stevie thing with this comment, but Lindsey is the quickest example of someone who releases material only very sporadically, so here goes:
Even with the great amount of years that go between Lindsey's releases, there are still songs he puts out there, that leave me cold.

There's nothing horrible about that. As I said, it's bound to happen. And, obviously, it's bound to happen whether someone releases new songs every couple of years or every seven years.

When I hear a song that I'm not crazy about, I simply trust that another will come along in a few minutes, that I will be crazy about.
No major letdowns at some songs not living up to my demands. Or towards the artist for including material they happen to like.

At best, certain songs will hit me where I live and rattle me to my core. At worst, I'll have 4 minutes of an "ok" song.
That's all I expect, and I haven't been disappointed yet.

Great post!

Can I add one thing? I think it is amazing that twenty-five years after Stevie was named "the queen of rock" by Rolling Stones and selling millions of albums, etc. she is still topping herself. At least I think so. Say You Will is my favorite Fleetwood Mac album and TISL has some of her best solo songs to date. I actually think she is at the top of her game right now.

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by diamondsnake

Great post!

Can I add one thing? I think it is amazing that twenty-five years after Stevie was named "the queen of rock" by Rolling Stones and selling millions of albums, etc. she is still topping herself. At least I think so. Say You Will is my favorite Fleetwood Mac album and TISL has some of her best solo songs to date. I actually think she is at the top of her game right now.

Well, I don't think she's sold "millions of albums" for a long time.

I love Stevie; I really do. I wouldn't exactly say she is topping herself, though. I agree that SYW and TISL had some great songs on there. However, many of them are old demos, written in her "prime." Some of her newer material was fairly generic. Also, vocally, she's not in her top form. So while Stevie is still a fantastic artist, I disagree she's at the top of her game.

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

Well, I don't think she's sold "millions of albums" for a long time.

I love Stevie; I really do. I wouldn't exactly say she is topping herself, though. I agree that SYW and TISL had some great songs on there. However, many of them are old demos, written in her "prime." Some of her newer material was fairly generic. Also, vocally, she's not in her top form. So while Stevie is still a fantastic artist, I disagree she's at the top of her game.

Alright, I agree with that. I think she was on her top during Tusk/Bella Donna. Lindsey, however is reinventing himself a lot more. The thing is, that he has the nerves to bring out music with a much bigger timelapse in between, so his development is more obvious. But I really think Stevie should take more risks in songwriting. She DID with illume and to lesser extend with Destiny rules, so I hope she takes that futher into a next Mac/solo-album.

[DeadliestPoison]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

Also, vocally, she's not in her top form

IMO, she was in top-form vocally during OSOTM.

And that's all I have to add.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I know full well that Stevie is not Bonnie Tyler, et al. She's also not Cher or Tina Turner or Debbie Harry, but that sure doesn't stop folks from bringing those ladies up in relation to Stevie.
My point is that "crap" is a relative term.

Well, when people say "Name another woman pushing sixty who's still rocking out like Stevie and touring so much," someone is obviously going to bring up Debbie Harry or Cher. The difference between that comaparison and the one you used previously is that no one is comparing their music, which is wildly different.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I've heard what I would call utter crap, and it's not any of the "garbage" songs you named.

And that's fine, they're my opinions. But, as always, we're just going to run in circles together because what I think is crap, you think is good; what I might think is good, you might think is crap. It's a no win situation, always has been.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Are they as good as some of Stevie's earlier work? That's highly debatable.
I'd personally have to say no, in regards to those particular songs.
But the implication is always that there's nothing of value to be found in them, and, on that, I whole-heartedly disagree.
In my eyes, they all have merit. They're all essential components in Stevie's oeuvre.

And I don't think they all have merits. Yeah, she could still pull out some amazing harmonies, some amazing lines here and there, but for the most part, her creativity was really zapped for a long time and it showed. One of the reasons I don't like or even listen to Street Angel is because it's such a depressing album. There's nothing but pain in her voice because you can hear in her how much she was suffering and how much it affected her work. Are there songs on it I like? Yes. But do they affect me like her other songs? No.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

And, with my deepest apologies, I simply don't have the unrealistic expectation for a songwriter to match or top what I consider to be their best songs, with every single attempt.

I don't either. I just expect consistency. I mean, to go from The Wild Heart to a thing such as Rock A Little was mind-boggling to me, even though I have a new appreciation for that album. Or from the Mirror album, one of my favorites, to Street Angel. Talk about your fall from grace, Stevie.

Consistency doesn't mean that every song is going to be fantastic or blow me away, it simple means that an artist should have a bar by which they measure what's quality and what isn't. Stevie's bar must have been pretty low for awhile. Thankfully, she got "it" back or we'd be suffering through Two Kinds of Love Part Deux.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm risking being accused of making this a Lindsey vs. Stevie thing with this comment, but Lindsey is the quickest example of someone who releases material only very sporadically, so here goes:
Even with the great amount of years that go between Lindsey's releases, there are still songs he puts out there, that leave me cold.

And I have no qualms with that because I feel the same way about Stevie, only she's more likely to have more songs I'm underwhelmed by simply because she's put out a larger catalog.

There are a good number of songs from Lindsey that I still do not like. I can't stand Street Of Dreams, Empire State drives me to drink, the album version of I'm So Afraid is cloying as all hell, etc. I love Lindsey, but he's released crap, too. Stevie's not the only one.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

When I hear a song that I'm not crazy about, I simply trust that another will come along in a few minutes, that I will be crazy about.
No major letdowns at some songs not living up to my demands. Or towards the artist for including material they happen to like.

And the thing is, not everyone has such a rosy view like yours when it comes to music. Sorry, but when I spend my money on a Fleetwood Mac, Stevie Nicks, or Lindsey Buckingham album, I'm expecting a certain quality from them. If they aren't up to par, I am going to be majorly let down. That's why I still can't stand some of Stevie's work; there are such wide ranges in quality from album to album. I mean, do you just buy an album from them and go in with no expectations whatsoever? If you say yes, you're a bald-faced liar.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

That's all I expect, and I haven't been disappointed yet.

And that's you.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by DeadliestPoison

IMO, she was in top-form vocally during OSOTM.

And that's all I have to add.

*~*Wise ass*~*

[Travis]

IKINW in the final two???? "What's the World Coming To?"

[Travis]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

Voting has ended.
Storms won

Oh good, thanks!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

Well, I don't think she's sold "millions of albums" for a long time.

I love Stevie; I really do. I wouldn't exactly say she is topping herself, though. I agree that SYW and TISL had some great songs on there. However, many of them are old demos, written in her "prime." Some of her newer material was fairly generic. Also, vocally, she's not in her top form. So while Stevie is still a fantastic artist, I disagree she's at the top of her game.

I do not know about that, in the last seven years, she has sold somewhere around five millions records (The Dance, Enchanted boxed set, TISL, SYW) - that sounds like millions to me AND - even if you divide The Dance by three and SYW by two, she is still in the millions So , that is still pretty good by most standards.

Seriously though, I know what you meant, but I think Stevie, like so many older artists, cannot sell to the youth or rap crowd (which are pretty much the same), which is the market that usually get you millions in sales. But, artisticlly, most reviews suggest she is still on top of it as is FM - and FM was able to tour to generally good numbers for a year and 1/2

AND - ITA Stevie's voice has lost the BD WH and even SA range and she refuses to do that "Because the Night" sound anymore - ditto for the majestic three part harmonies prevelent in the song BD and the roudesq. harmonies a la Nightbird. Other than the end of Jane (in the eyes of the world - you have doooonnnee so much) - that is over. That is sad to me, but it is reality so I moved on (I took my dreams and my love - I went quietly - silently slipping away )

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

AND - ITA Stevie's voice has lost the BD WH and even SA range and she refuses to do that "Because the Night" sound anymore - ditto for the majestic three part harmonies prevelent in the song BD and the roudesq. harmonies a la Nightbird. Other than the end of Jane (in the eyes of the world - you have doooonnnee so much) - that is over. That is sad to me, but it is reality so I moved on (I took my dreams and my love - I went quietly - silently slipping away )

My favorite era of her voice was from '94-'98. Her voice had so much power and strength to it, unlike ever before. In all the years up to that time, she never really had a strong voice. Pretty as it was, it was rather weak. When I first saw The Dance, I was blown away. Beautiful stuff.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

My favorite era of her voice was from '94-'98. Her voice had so much power and strength to it, unlike ever before. In all the years up to that time, she never really had a strong voice. Pretty as it was, it was rather weak. When I first saw The Dance, I was blown away. Beautiful stuff.

I agree - the stuff from those eras, esp. the Enchanted Tour - was stellar.

I just also liked the lithe vocal quality she had in the 70's, which was missing on the Tusk tour.

But, yes, academically, the 1994 - 1998 voice was much better.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by diamondsnake

I actually think she is at the top of her game right now.

Not even close! I wouldn't say Stevie is anywhere close to the top of her game at this point.

I think her voice is shot- very bleaty and pinched these days. She refuses to show any range in her live performances.

Stevie was at "the top of her game" in 1981/1982. Those were the days!