Wouldn't it be great if Stevie...

[Serrart]

Originally Posted by face of glass

"Esoteric" to me: hidden, secret, difficult to approach (except for those with 'the know', 'the connection', or whatever).
Posts (that you've most probably already seen) for further reference:
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpo...&postcount=239
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpo...&postcount=414
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpo...&postcount=432

Yeah, well. My tongue likes to twist the words like that these days. Apologies to you for me bastardising your beautiful language. Let us Europeans stick together, no matter what our tastes are. Johnny, after all, is to this board what USA is to the rest of the world.

Thanks for the links Gaius, I just didn't remember your neologism (by the way, I like it ). I don't see all this esoterism in her production, maybe a lot of mysticism but mostly the imagery of her inner world, that has its own rules, as anybody else's inner worlds, ours included.

Romy

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I did see that you picked up 'OSOTM'! Very cool.
What do you think of it so far?
It definitely takes a while to grow on some folks, while others never warm up to it. I think that mainly has to do with the production-style, but certainly has to do with the subject matter of a few of the songs, too.

Even my own view of it had dimmed somewhat over the years, but when I want back and listened to it all the way through the other day, I remembered so many of the things that I had loved about it.

Stevie calls it her "magic album," and I can see why that is. 'Mirror' has a very ethereal... almost ephemeral... quality about it. It's hard to put your finger on exactly what "it" is, because it slips away from you like those grains of sand Lindsey talks about in "Oh Diane."

Amber... don't worry about responding to the above.
I had noticed on the Chit-Chat Forum that you had bought 'OSOTM,' but hadn't noticed that you had posted your thoughts on it in the " OSOTM - break down" thread until just now.

You touched upon something interesting in your comments there, by the way.
For some strange reason, 'Mirror' IS a great album to listen to when it's raining.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by amber

It's ok. I like the production. But I haven't noticed many dramatic vocals from Stevie (Except Room on Fire and Whole lotta, which i already knew from Timespace) so that kinda bums me out. So far my favorite is Cry Wolf, which i noticed Stevie didn't write. I don't think I'm gonna like Alice and Juliet as much as everyone else (major key?). I do like the lyrics on this album, I think they are Stevie plus. In that way it is magical. I'm sure it will grow on me more - actually, I like it but in a backround way...a really good backround way. It doesn't look like it's gonna be one of my "super singin'" albums, and that is what i like to do with Stevie...We'll see
AMber

Oops! We were posting at roughly the same time.
Sorry about that! But thanks for reiterating your thoughts on the album.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Amber... don't worry about responding to the above.
I had noticed on the Chit-Chat Forum that you had bought 'OSOTM,' but hadn't noticed that you had posted your thoughts on it in the " OSOTM - break down" thread until just now.

You touched upon something interesting in your comments there, by the way.
For some strange reason, 'Mirror' IS a great album to listen to when it's raining.

Cause it's good, but quiet, for Stevie. And otherworldy. It's kind of a strange album, to me. I'm looking forward to getting to know it better.
AMber

[amber]

For the Week of August 12, 2004

The Aquarium Age is a report on the general astrological patterns of the coming week for all signs, not just Aquariums.



This week, the planets stir a restless wind, turning hearts and minds antsy with agitation, making it hard to maintain regular routines or settle into a calm, easy attitude. A portion of this restive force is born from the normal frustration of Mercury retrograde, which began on Monday. But a larger part is the result of a clash between Uranus and Mars, both of which are interacting with Mercury, and neither enjoy being constrained by retrograde Mercury in Virgo’s plodding devotion to the details of the past. On a personal level, the collision of these conflicting forces translates into quarrelsome mindsets and short tempers. From the collective perspective, the heat increases in those already too hot spots of the world. As always, compassion will serve as the best remedy for the turbulence, so even if being kind isn't easy, do your best—there's no need to contribute to the unrest.

Uranus opposes that retrograde Mercury producing a peculiar tension that tends to search for release through hasty action or quick conclusions. Uranus-Mercury contacts are famous for brilliant, revolutionary ideas, but this week, those intellectual insights are likely to be flooded with contradiction, and the result is confusion instead of clarity.

But that's not the crux of this week's restlessness. The real problem is Mars. Mars begins an opposition to Uranus today, and by the weekend Mars also forms a conjunction with Mercury. (Oy—it is as convoluted as it sounds.) Mars-Uranus anything thrives on action, and because of that their interactions are often related to accidents, especially mishaps caused by haste or frustration. Try not to give in to the kind of impatience that breeds carelessness. If you get stuck in traffic, surrender to the moment, and soothe that need to move. A Mars-Mercury conjunction feeds a picky desire to focus on what's wrong instead of what's right. This conjunction also amps up the bent toward rash behavior, especially if you're counting on action to solve the problem. Remember, we're in a retrograde, which means action may not be the wisest choice. This entire Mercury/Mars/Uranus bundle irritates nervous systems, and because this pattern builds all week and spills over into next week, we can expect a pretty bumpy ride, personal and collective.

Fortunately, Uranus trines Venus, and while this interaction is infamous for amorous eccentricity, it is just as well known for providing artistic inspiration. So channel the restless currents of the week into creative pursuits, and you'll not only experience the ability to push boundaries and techniques, but you'll also find a positive way to avoid getting snagged by the intensity.

[diamondsnake]

Originally Posted by dissention

This is what I find ridiculous, and I'm sure Le Stew would agree with me.

I make no bones about being a huge Lindsey fan. Just like a lot of other people on this board, I started off as a huge Stevie fan and then "converted." I do think he's a genius, just as I think Stevie is genius when it comes to lyrics and vocals.

I love both Lindsey and Stevie, Lindsey more, but of course they're both going to have material that I simply do not care for. In the case of Stevie, she's put out a lot more material over the years than Lindsey, so she's more than likely going to have more stuff that I dislike, namely SA, some of RAL, and her Tango stuff. Now, as much as I like Stevie, every time anyone expresses any sort of criticism towards her, they're shot down and considered crazy.

Fact is, not everything she's done is great, IMO. I think she gets stuck in lots of ruts and just stews in the same thing for ages when it comes to her music. She isn't adventurous and always sticks with the same formula; she's too safe and wants to be too commerical too often. Doesn't change the quality of the lyrics or the quality of her voice, but it can get a bit rote for me. I still love *most* of it, but there's just some stuff that I find terrible. Doesn't make me any less of a fan, whether you agree or not. Then you have Lindsey, who doesn't stick to any formula. He does what he wants and doesn't hold back. Sometimes it makes for stellar music, sometimes not. But it's his willingness to experiment and the quality of it all that I find so appealing.

To me, when I look at Stevie's music, I see a pattern to it. With each progressive album, she caters more and more to public tastes, the pinnacle being the Street Angel album which was so devoid of any emotion that I can't bear listening to it. I can't blame her for wanting to sell tons of records, but I just wish she'd challenge herself more. We all know she can do it, just look at Illume; one of her most out-of-left-field songs. She needs to breathe more life into her music, which I submit she can based on parts of TISL and SYW.

There are plenty of things I don't like about Lindsey. He mumbles too many lyrics, gets a bit too self-indulgent (Street of Dreams and Come), goes overboard on the production sometimes, and noodles too much on some songs (Bleed To Love Her...ugh). But, just like with Stevie, it doesn't make the music necessarily bad. Almost every song of theirs has at least one redeeming value (I said almost, I didn't let WISYA or some of those GOS songs off the hook) because they're the ones at the wheel.

I think a lot of people around here simply forget why we're all here: because we're fans of this band. But just because we're fans, we don't have to worship at the Temple of La Nicks or the Temple of Liddy Buck. We don't have to throw around labels like "The Queen of Rock" to prove our points because, in all honesty, labels like those are subjective and just end up turning people off. It makes people look like blind worshippers, which I'm sure they're not, and has no service in these discussions. As much as I'd love to, I don't trot around the board proclaiming Lindsey "The King of All Music." Why? Because it's all subjective and just because I love Lindsey, it doesn't mean others do. I accept that, even though there are fans of both Stevie and Lindsey who are simply dead-set against giving the other credit for anything. It's absurd and provides for much comic relief.

People like who they like, it's as simple as that and everyone needs to accept that. Just because someone says some Stevie material is awful or because they say Law and Order is a terrible excuse for an album, or even if they make some comment or barb about the work of some band members, it doesn't give everyone free reign to belittle those opinions by labeling someone as a Stevie or Lindsey "hater." I see a lot of people complain about how they're so sick of the negative comments and blah blah blah, but the fact of the matter is that any criticism can be construed as negative and they're the ones dwelling ont he negative when they choose to post posts completely relating to what they see as negativity from others.

What you've done with your post above, Christopher, is belittle fans of Lindsey by making it seem as if they think he's a god. He's not, he's a musician. He has no title like King or Prince, he's just a freaking musician. To say that his fans put him on a pedestal and then turn around and call Stevie a Queen is, in my opinion, hypocritical and short-sighted.

Like who you like, enjoy the music, and discuss the music however you feel you need to discuss it.

[/end rant]

I have belittled fans of Lindsey?... if I did then you are guilty of the same thing. I don't know how many times you have talked about how Stevie fans "worship their Queen". This is just plain not true. I don't worship her- I just think she is really talented and everything is just better when I hear her warm voice and listen to her lyrics.

And I think most of what I am saying is true. Lindsey fans seem to be more vocal on this board about what a "genius" he is. In fact, I was basically attacked a few months ago when I started a post stating I just couldn't apreciate some of his songs on Tusk. Most people told me I had a lot of growing up to do and I didn't appreciate true art. My opinion meant nothing and everyone else was so artsy and much smarter then I was because they liked his Tusk songs.

Now if I started a smimilar thread about Stevie's songs on any album many people would say "The Klonopin era- her writting sucked!" or "Oh yeah, that album is so overrated", etc. The thread would not have caused a stink like the mere mention that I didn't care for a few songs Lindsey wrote.

[diamondsnake]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

He's mentioned his age/being in high school, on many occasions, so I figured you knew by now.
And certainly many teenagers can be extremely adept at articulating themselves (such as Jason T. is, and as Josh2003 was when he was that age), but many others are not. So it's up to us to be the mature ones, while they're finding their voice, and to try not to squash their enthusiasm in the meantime.

No offense Johnny, but if this is just dissention's personality then I really don't want him/her to treat me any other way. I know I am the "baby" on the board and the youngest here, but I don't want any special treatment because of that. I admit all the time that I am blinded by Stevie on this board. And obviously this early in the game I have not had time to focus on the negative sides to her music. Still I think I can tell a good song from a bad song. I really don't like Thrown Down and Loves a Hard Game to Play. Those are Stevie songs! Maybe I just haven't been a fan for decades (like may of you) and have not had time to nitpick on the little things (example- the word Chimpanzee)

[diamondsnake]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I've just tried to stick up for the Ledgies who've felt they were being pushed down or belittled. The ones who eventually leave because they're tired of being made to feel like fools.

I really appreciate this Johnny and you're right- I am tired of being made a fool of by one person in paticular. But I don't think I could ever leave this board. I need a place to talk about Stevie and my friends at school only know about "that right winged dove song???"

[sparky]

Originally Posted by diamondsnake

In fact, I was basically attacked a few months ago when I started a post stating I just couldn't apreciate some of his songs on Tusk. Most people told me I had a lot of growing up to do and I didn't appreciate true art. My opinion meant nothing and everyone else was so artsy and much smarter then I was because they liked his Tusk songs.

So true ! I remember it vividly. I think the reaction was as much about your delivery as your message. But I feel the same way, and have never been shy about saying it. Some of those Tusk songs of his make me feel like I am being root canaled without a shot or laughing gas.

But, you know, what are you gonna do ? Verbal sparring and discussion is fun and good for us. You're learning fast - and these are some tough rooms, dude.

[sparky]

Even though I am a mere spectator in this latest volley, I must comment. The discussion is simply too rich.

Originally Posted by dissention

I don't feel that I or anyone else should have to censor what they say because it may or may not be construed as snide or rude.

Thank GOD. Where would I be without your possibly interpreted as snide or rude comments ? Far less amused, that's where.

Originally Posted by JohnnyStew

(Of course, I have to wonder why you feel the need to tell us how much you hate it, each and EVERY time 'Street Angel' is mentioned... but so be it. )

Of course I cannot speak for Dissention, and don't trash the record nearly as often...but I hoot and holler about it because it is so completely disappointing and out of wack on so many levels. I still haven't gotten over it

I may be in the minority, but I mind neither the fawning over nor the shredding of any artist's work. Actually, what I want to know is WHY a person feels that way. And the more detailed and specific they can get about it, the better. If someone says "That song is a vile stain on music history," well, okay, explain why. If you're gonna talk tough, back it up. The music ? The performance ? The production ? The writing ? Ditto "The Best Song Ever Written". Details. Where else are we going to find other freaks like us who even give a second thought as to why they like or dislike this band's music ?
This is about exchange of ideas, as far as I am concerned. It ain't Meet The Press, but it does something for me.

As far as character assassination about differing tastes goes...eh, haven't seen much of that. What I do see is mostly lighthearted and fun. The outright attack is very rare, and if a qualifying statement about joking, sarcasm, or fascetiousness is required so people's feelings aren't hurt...man, are we that much of a society of walking open wounds ? If I need a Xanax because someone disses Chiffonheads in general, I don't need a message board or an apology, I need to get my behind to a shrink. Fast.

I like spirited and even outrageous opinions. I'm always happy to hear more...and the motivations behind them. Snide, worshipful, grouchy, awestruck. All are good if communicated with precision.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by sparky

I may be in the minority, but I mind neither the fawning over nor the shredding of any artist's work. Actually, what I want to know is WHY a person feels that way. And the more detailed and specific they can get about it, the better. If someone says "That song is a vile stain on music history," well, okay, explain why. If you're gonna talk tough, back it up. The music ? The performance ? The production ? The writing ? Ditto "The Best Song Ever Written". Details. Where else are we going to find other freaks like us who even give a second thought as to why they like or dislike this band's music ?
This is about exchange of ideas, as far as I am concerned. It ain't Meet The Press, but it does something for me.

As far as character assassination about differing tastes goes...eh, haven't seen much of that. What I do see is mostly lighthearted and fun. The outright attack is very rare, and if a qualifying statement about joking, sarcasm, or fascetiousness is required so people's feelings aren't hurt...man, are we that much of a society of walking open wounds ? If I need a Xanax because someone disses Chiffonheads in general, I don't need a message board or an apology, I need to get my behind to a shrink. Fast.

I like spirited and even outrageous opinions. I'm always happy to hear more...and the motivations behind them. Snide, worshipful, grouchy, awestruck. All are good if communicated with precision.

I'm with you, in that I do love the spirited debates and the varying opinions (even when I vehemently disagree with certain opinions).

But I only ask that we're all just a little more considerate of each other.

We have a lot of people here... a lot of different ages, backgrounds, ethnicities, sensibilities, etc.... and it doesn't hurt to be respectful of each other's differences. Most especially until you've talked with someone long enough to suss out their personality and their sense of humour. There are some people I definitely feel comfortable joking with, because I trust that they know my sense of humour now. There are others that I don't joke around with, because we haven't established an understanding yet.

Not everyone is tough and hardened, and we shouldn't force them to be. It shouldn't have to be a situation where people are either forced to play hardball, or leave. Room should be made for the more sensitive people too.

And the more sensitive people should remember that some people are always going to come across as harsh. But don't let it get to you in any situation other than those that really affect your life. And what some faceless stranger says on a message board isn't one of those situations.

I realize that I am often harder on the more critical people... not because they're critical, but because of the ways in which they sometimes interact with other Ledgies. And I think it's because I sometimes expect more out of certain people.
And then sometimes I feel like I have to be harder on them, because they ignore the gentler approach.

I know these aren't my boards, but as a moderator here... and as a fan, in general... I want to see as many people as possible, posting here and enjoying their time here. It should be inclusive, not exclusive.
So I hate hearing things like, "I don't post on The Ledge anymore, because people made me feel like an idiot for my opinion," or "because people were so bitchy to me."

So, yeah, I think a little tact and a little respect go a long way.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sparky

Thank GOD. Where would I be without your possibly interpreted as snide or rude comments ? Far less amused, that's where.

It's only a matter of time before I apply that tampons and toothpaste line to Stevie somehow.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by Serrart

You mean speaking from a pure Dissention's entertainment standpoint. From mine I'd say Stevie, Rolling Stones, U2, David Bowie, Bruce Springsteen, Dave Matthews Band.

Romy

David Bowie = Best concert I've ever been too, and believe me, I've been to A LOT of live shows. He is amazing, and at his age too, I just can't believe how f*cking good he still is.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by cliffdweller

David Bowie = Best concert I've ever been too, and believe me, I've been to A LOT of live shows. He is amazing, and at his age too, I just can't believe how f*cking good he still is.

I saw him four times in the nineties and he's even better now than he was then. He just gets better and better as time passes. Plus, his past two albums have been phenomenal. Personally, I was shocked that he put out Heathen and less than a year later, he put out Reality. He's on a roll!!!

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by diamondsnake

Just forget the whole solo thing!

No way!! I likes my Stevie solo albums!! Are you kidding me? Give up albums chock full of Stevie only, with songs either unintended for Fleetwood Mac or rejected by F.M.? I want to hear those songs! How would they ever see the light of day?