Kerry aide: Bush 'flat out lied' on Iraq - Page 6

Johnny Stew · #76 08-02-2004, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Do you think I am alone in thinking that four more years of Bush may be what's necessary to wake up the American people?

I don't see Bush's re-election as being "less damaging" in the least.
Again, maybe only to those who have less to lose. But not to me.
And I feel that if enough eyes haven't been opened by now, they're not going to be. It shouldn't take EIGHT years to open people's eyes. Four should be plenty.

Kerry may not be perfect (though I still argue that NO politician... Democrat, Republican, Green Party or what have you... will EVER be perfect), and, again, I don't agree with his every position, but I strongly feel that he'll be a damn sight better than Bush.

We CAN improve the Democratic party, and bring about those reforms that many people desire, without blocking them from holding office.
Allowing the current administration to have another four years of doing what they please, un-checked, is only going to make the situation much worse, and is only going to make it that much more difficult to improve the way things are run in this country.

And that's not "fear" talking. It's logic.

strandinthewind · #77 08-02-2004, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

It's not about being a non-conformist, Brian, it's about being true to what you believe in.

True in a vacuum IMO. I am a realist. I do not want four more years of W and the effect that will have on the next 20 years with the USSC. That is my main fear (yes I said fear

) if W gets reelected. The D's will not nominate anyone near as bad as anyone W has nominated. That - BTW and for those not paying attention - is why a vote for Kerry is most certainly NOT a vote for W. AND - that babble in the May quote is just that. He is pandering to the independents. He has to do that to win.

AND - all presidents must drill for oil anywhere they can. No matter what anyone says, that is the way it is. I think it sucks. But, until we have viable alternatives to fossil fuels that the public demand supports, all of the oil will be taken from the Earth. There is no way in hell the oil lobbyists will EVER let that happen. That is why I say go ahead and drill everywhere we can amd get it over with soon rather than drag it out

Johnny Stew · #78 08-02-2004, 03:41 PM

(Oops, forgot to comment on this....)

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

It's not about being a non-conformist, Brian, it's about being true to what you believe in.

I apologize for my misassumption. Some of your comments in various threads have come off as rather flippant, and, to me at least, you've sounded as if you're basically being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

You and I agree on a lot when it comes to politics, and I hope you know by now that I have the utmost respect for those who fight for what they believe in.
Even if I don't always agree with them, or the ways in which they fight for their beliefs.

CarneVaca · #79 08-02-2004, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I don't see Bush's re-election as being "less damaging" in the least.
Again, maybe only to those who have less to lose. But not to me.
And I feel that if enough eyes haven't been opened by now, they're not going to be. It shouldn't take EIGHT years to open people's eyes. Four should be plenty.

It's taken 24 years already, Brian. Do you really think Clinton was a liberal? Nafta, Welfare Act, Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Just to name a few.

Quote:

We CAN improve the Democratic party, and bring about those reforms that many people desire, without blocking them from holding office.

Good luck. After 24 years, I've given up. No honest-to-goodness significant change ever comes from within. The Democrats need a jolt from outside to wake up.

Quote:

And that's not "fear" talking. It's logic.

It's pragmatism, Brian. Far from logic. And in my view, it's pragmatism based on fear. But I suspect we are going to continue to disagree.

The examples in my last post should prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that my opposition to Kerry isn't solely based on the Iraq war, though that is the one issue that turned me against the man I was waiting for years to run for president so I could vote for him. He's a disappointment. A bad candidate. Gore revisited. After he loses, perhaps he'll find his courage to speak his mind, as Gore has, too little too late.

CarneVaca · #80 08-02-2004, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Some of your comments in various threads have come off as rather flippant, and, to me at least, you've sounded as if you're basically being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Well... do I like to play the contrarian role? Of course!

No need to apologize.

On Nov. 3, you, Gldstwman, Dissention, Strand, etc., will all give one another a cyber hug and move on, regardless of who wins.

Until then...

strandinthewind · #81 08-02-2004, 03:45 PM

But, Carne - you are arguing the D. party should be extremist in their lineral nature. That is not what they are about. It really never has been IMO. For the last two decades or so, that is what the R party has painted them as. But, the painting does not make it so

CarneVaca · #82 08-02-2004, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

But, Carne - you are arguing the D. party should be extremist in their lineral nature. That is not what they are about. It really never has been IMO. For the last two decades or so, that is what the R party has painted them as. But, the painting does not make it so

Jason, if you think the party of Lyndon Johnson, Harry Truman and Franklyn Delano Roosevelt was extremist, then I suppose I am arguing for the Democratic Party's return to extremism. And may I remind you that extremism lifted millons of people in this country? The Democratic Party of today is contributing to the erosion of the middle class, creating a society with room for only rich and poor.

Johnny Stew · #83 08-02-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

It's taken 24 years already, Brian. Do you really think Clinton was a liberal? Nafta, Welfare Act, Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Just to name a few.

Clinton wasn't perfect (obviously), and wasn't quite liberal enough in many cases. But his level of liberalism was still a marked contrast in regards to the 12 years of the Reagan & Bush Sr. administrations.

Now we've taken a step back. Several steps in fact.
And I'd just hate to see another four years of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

After 24 years, I've given up. No honest-to-goodness significant change ever comes from within. The Democrats need a jolt from outside to wake up.

And I believe the change can come from within. Which is where we differ, I'm afraid.

strandinthewind · #84 08-02-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Jason, if you think the party of Lyndon Johnson, Harry Truman and Franklyn Delano Roosevelt was extremist, then I suppose I am arguing for the Democratic Party's return to extremism. And may I remind you that extremism lifted millons of people in this country? The Democratic Party of today is contributing to the erosion of the middle class, creating a society with room for only rich and poor.

IMO those parties were not that liberal. I am talking about your "free medical attention for all, no guns at all, and free social services for all no matter what, abortion on demand up until birth" kind of liberals. Those were not the parties of the people you mentioned. I see what you are saying, but think you are mistaken in your using liberal when I think you mean extreme liberal. In any event, our argument here is moot, because the R's are so far into the religious right, that the middle of the road D's like Clinton was seem unliberal to liberals. The R's have successfully supplanted the def. of liberal IMO.

Johnny Stew · #85 08-02-2004, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

On Nov. 3, you, Gldstwman, Dissention, Strand, etc., will all give one another a cyber hug and move on, regardless of who wins.

Sadly, I have a sinking feeling that Bush will win come November.
I sure hope I'm wrong though.

But yeah, life will go on, and the world will keep on turning... but I'm going to be angry as angry can be, and worried that I won't have any rights left by the time he's done.