What ONE issue is most important to you in this election year?

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

Carne, I said that the attacks may have influenced some people, and that those who were opposed to Spain's military involvement (most of Spain, as we both acknowledge) may have been pushed over the edge by the attacks. That's all I'm saying.

Let me refresh your memory as to what I was reacting to in the first place:

But I don't feel as though I should hold that against him when I decide whom to cast my vote for; look what happened in Spain. The terrorists want to dictate who gets voted into elected offices.

Nowhere in that statement do you acknowledge any of the nuances and the complexity of the situation. You made a throwaway statement that indicated to me you were towing the fascist neocon line. You seem to be trying to backpedal from that. You should.

Also, right off the bat, I said this:

This is one of those claims that drives me to distraction. It makes me positively furious.

You want to insist on taking offense at my tone, I can't help that. It really isn't directed at you so much as it is directed at the idea and the people who concocted the idea, as I thought might be evident from the above statement.

Now as far as this:

I am certainly not going to keep my mouth shut because you told me to.

I challenge you to quote back to me where I said you should shut your mouth or any instances of my trying to "censor" you, which under the circumstances is an impossibility. The only people who can censor you are the owner and moderators of the site.

I've tried to reasonably explain to you why I brought up the points I did. I was hoping you would benefit from a little bit of the history of the situation so maybe you won't make the same throwaway comment in the future. You may choose to use it to your benefit, or you may choose to continue to take offense. Your choice. But you should know I wasn't trying to insult you.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

Yes-you understand correctly. That's exactly what we think and we aren't alone in thinking it either. It's not without presidence after all, FDR let Pearl Harbor be attacked because he knew he would need a compelling reason to get the US involved in WWII. It worked.

WHOA!! Utter and complete unproven nonsense! I can't believe some people still buy into this fiction. I've got two words for you on this: Prove it.

Now, Roosevelt did exaggerate, perhaps even lied, about German attacks on US ships in the North Atlantic. But the Pearl Harbor claim is contemptuous. He never intended to go to war with Japan, at least not until after the US fought against the Germans. Pearl Harbor put a serious crimp on his plans for the war. This is historical fact.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

Yes-you understand correctly. That's exactly what we think and we aren't alone in thinking it either. It's not without presidence after all, FDR let Pearl Harbor be attacked because he knew he would need a compelling reason to get the US involved in WWII. It worked. Also, think about where Bush was at in the polls prior to 9/11--right around where he's at again, in fact. Think about how high his approval ratings bounched after 9/11. Do I think that they thought it was going to be as bad as it ended up being--no. There's a lot of evidence available where people have done a lot of research on this topic. It's very scary stuff.
But think about it--if you're willing to steal an election and dismantle the constitution--would it bother you to allow your own country to be attacked--particuarly if you and your cronies would benefit from it? I doubt it. And that's why I'm in the LIHOP/MIHOP camp.

I agree the the Bush camp LIHOP, but I've never seen any compelling evidence to suggest that Roosevelt let Pearl Harbor happen. I was going to write an article about it for the anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack awhile back, but couldn't find any convincing evidence. And I tried, doll.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by hayley

Screw all this arguing about the presidential elections! Think instead of the fact that my state may just have Senator MIKE DITKA soon... EEEEEK

This Mike Ditka?



Or this one?

http://illinoisleader.com/news/newsview.asp?c=17620

NEWS FLASH: Ditka storms out of meeting

Wednesday, July 14, 2004

By The Leader-Chicago Bureau

CHICAGO -- This morning in downtown Chicago, former Bears coach Mike Ditka left a secret meeting with IL GOP decision makers, angered about the media being tipped off about the meeting.

Ditka was to meet with members of the IL GOP State Central Committee and to speak via conference call with national level Republicans as he considered whether or not to fill the vacancy left when former candidate for U.S. Senate Jack Ryan announced his intentions to withdraw on June 25.

As word of the meeting leaked out to the press, Ditka reportedly was angered when met by reporters, exited the meeting promptly and hopped into his black Escalade, and left, obviously upset.

Ditka met last night with U.S. Senator George Allen, who flew into town to discuss the possibility of the former tight end filling the Ryan vacancy. Allen heads the Republican Senate Committee and is the son of football coach George Allen, who Ditka played for at one time.

Ditka's willingness to take on the candidacy may be in doubt now...

[Hawkeye]

I'm sure the super fans from SNL will be loving this new develepment. DITKA for Congress, I always knew he could do it.

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by dissention

This Mike Ditka?



Or this one?

http://illinoisleader.com/news/newsview.asp?c=17620

NEWS FLASH: Ditka storms out of meeting

Wednesday, July 14, 2004

By The Leader-Chicago Bureau

CHICAGO -- This morning in downtown Chicago, former Bears coach Mike Ditka left a secret meeting with IL GOP decision makers, angered about the media being tipped off about the meeting.

Ditka was to meet with members of the IL GOP State Central Committee and to speak via conference call with national level Republicans as he considered whether or not to fill the vacancy left when former candidate for U.S. Senate Jack Ryan announced his intentions to withdraw on June 25.

As word of the meeting leaked out to the press, Ditka reportedly was angered when met by reporters, exited the meeting promptly and hopped into his black Escalade, and left, obviously upset.

Ditka met last night with U.S. Senator George Allen, who flew into town to discuss the possibility of the former tight end filling the Ryan vacancy. Allen heads the Republican Senate Committee and is the son of football coach George Allen, who Ditka played for at one time.

Ditka's willingness to take on the candidacy may be in doubt now...

My cousin's '80s bat mitzvah reception was at his nightclub, with him & McMahon in attendance. I don't like that side of the family or any candidate who would spend time with them.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

I'm sure the super fans from SNL will be loving this new develepment. DITKA for Congress, I always knew he could do it.

We've had such luck with celebrity politicians. Gopher, Ventura, Ahhnuld. Where have you gone, Gary Coleman, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

- Jake

[amber]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

We've had such luck with celebrity politicians. Gopher, Ventura, Ahhnuld. Where have you gone, Gary Coleman, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

- Jake

oh, the defacement of a great song...

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

I'm sure the super fans from SNL will be loving this new develepment. DITKA for Congress, I always knew he could do it.

us diehard Cubs fans don't have to hear Ditka singing "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" again during the 7th inning stretch, Than more power to him...

(For the record, only Ozzy Osbourne version of "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" was worse than Ditka's version)

[GypsySorcerer]

This is where I got the impression you didn't want me to post my views:

So please, do me and everybody else a favor. Stop disseminating this fiction that the Spanish public caved to the terrorists.

As far as my initial post, I was responding to the question posed, which was: who would be better at fighting terrorism, Bush or Kerry? I mentioned the Spanish election to show how terrorist attacks have the potential of changing the outcomes of the elections. Perhaps I should have further explained my point at that time.

[DeeGeMe]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

WHOA!! Utter and complete unproven nonsense! I can't believe some people still buy into this fiction. I've got two words for you on this: Prove it.

No--you prove to me that he didn't and I'll believe you--but until then--I'm telling you that there are serious questions about the way in which 9/11 played out.

And on the whole FDR thing--I had more than one teacher in high school teach us that and I had a couple of Poly Sci and History professors in college who said the same thing. It's not a period of history that I'm really familiar with but I know what I was taught in school. Then again, I went to a heavily Republican college! I don't think there was a single Democrat in the whole Poly Sci department!

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

This is where I got the impression you didn't want me to post my views:

Don't confuse a rhetorical device with an attempt to censor.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

No--you prove to me that he didn't and I'll believe you--but until then--I'm telling you that there are serious questions about the way in which 9/11 played out.

I agree with you on Bush. A lot remains unexplained, which could simply be explained as abject incompetence. But my comment was strictly in relation to your FDR claim.

And on the whole FDR thing--I had more than one teacher in high school teach us that and I had a couple of Poly Sci and History professors in college who said the same thing. It's not a period of history that I'm really familiar with but I know what I was taught in school. Then again, I went to a heavily Republican college! I don't think there was a single Democrat in the whole Poly Sci department!

Your teachers were either sadly misinformed or they were knowingly passing on an unproven fiction. While this particular fiction has gained legs, even wings, over the decades, it remains unproven.

What is clear is that FDR was chomping at the bit to fight Germany. He knew it was inevitable. And keeping that in mind, the attack on Pearl Harbor, while it gave us an entry into the war, unquestionably put a crimp on his war plans.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

And on the whole FDR thing--I had more than one teacher in high school teach us that and I had a couple of Poly Sci and History professors in college who said the same thing. It's not a period of history that I'm really familiar with but I know what I was taught in school. Then again, I went to a heavily Republican college! I don't think there was a single Democrat in the whole Poly Sci department!

You had some rather ****ty teachers, my dear.

That's like a high school social science teacher teaching her class that Lyndon Johnson was behind JFK's murder. It's all hocus-pocus.

[Hawkeye]

OK I can't hold my question any longer, CarneVaca what Strike are you talking about What is your signiture saying.