Thoughts on Fahrenheit 9/11 *spoilers*

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by dissention

Well, that really explains all of the questiuoning from the 9/11 commission about why nothing was done in retaliation for the Cole bombing, an investigation that the Bush administration put a halt to and cost John Dean his life.

O'Neill darling.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

O'Neill darling.

There's so many John's!

Anyways, did oyu see that episode of Frontline about him? That was eerie as all hell.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by dissention

There's so many John's!

Anyways, did oyu see that episode of Frontline about him? That was eerie as all hell.

I watched just a little of it on the web site. I am familiar with the story, though.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

I watched just a little of it on the web site. I am familiar with the story, though.

They went into great depths regarding the Cole bombing investigation and how ChimpCo halted it.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by dissention

They went into great depths regarding the Cole bombing investigation and how ChimpCo halted it.

I'm not surprised. I'm seriously begining to think finding OBL/Al Qaida is not in the administration's best interest.

[strandinthewind]

Here is an article by Fox News disputing the facts in F - 9/11. It is no suprise it comes from Fox, but others may follow. My comments are in bold.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124079,00.html

The Truth About 'Fahrenheit 9/11'

Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" broke records this weekend, becoming the first documentary to debut as Hollywood's top weekend film — but there are holes in the controversial film's story.

For instance, in one often-showed clip, Moore claims that President Bush was on vacation 42 percent of the time during his first several months in office — but that estimation included weekends at Camp David, a common practice for presidents. Without those days figured in, Bush actually spent 13 percent of his time on vacation. [FOUL - I think that 13 percent means the time while he was on a "working vacation" that he spent not working" ]

The movie also criticizes Bush for staying inside a Florida classroom full of kids for a full seven minutes after he learned that the country was under attack on Sept. 11, 2001.

However, the vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission has said that Bush did the right thing. "Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom," said Lee Hamilton, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana. [No Comment - I do not fault him for staying the classroom - but respect that other's do ]

In "Fahrenheit 9/11" (search) Moore also claims that the White House approved plans for planes to pick up relatives of Usama Bin Laden right after the attacks. But according to terrorism czar Richard Clarke (search), he alone approved the Saudi flights. [If Clarke did it alone, which he apparently says he did, then W would not be in on it, but maybe he was and Clarke is not saying. But, Clarke said a whole lot about other embarassing things so . . . ]

In addition, Moore says that the departing Saudis were not properly processed by the FBI when leaving the country. That too is contradicted by the Sept. 11 commission, which said the Saudis were properly interviewed. [I have no comment because I have not read the 9/11 Commission's report. but, if true, then MM is wrong]

Finally, Moore shows prominent members of the Taliban visiting Texas, implying that they were invited by then-Governor Bush. The Taliban delegation, however, was invited to Houston by UNOCAL (search), a California energy company. [Is this true and if so, who owned UNOCAL?]

Moore also doesn't mention that the visit was made with the permission of the Clinton administration, which twice met with Taliban members — in 1997 and 1998. [Well, this is no surprise, MM was not commenting on Clinton]


____________________________________________________________

Anyway, they make some interesting points even if they are Fox News. I do not think MM has responded yet. He ways he was going to. So, hopefully he will.

[strandinthewind]

From
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in624585.shtml

CBS News Correspondent Jim Axelrod reports another pan of the film comes from a Republican congressman who's in the movie
and complains that Moore, who did an ambush interview with him on the street, failed to include his answers.

Moore shows himself telling Minnesota Rep. Mark Kennedy that "We are trying to get members of Congress to get their kids to enlist in the army... and go over to Iraq."

Kennedy's got two nephews in the military - and says he told Moore that one was on the way to Afghanistan - a fact Kennedy says should have been included in the film.
____________________________________________________________

Yes, MM should have put that in the film. This is an example of MM's self-admitted style of use of editing to make his point. It is at any cost and that is unfortunate. This, BTW, is an example of me finding fault with MMand this film. MM did not like the answer and the answer would have taken away from the message of the movie, so despite its truth, he omits it. How is that truthful

Is it a distinction without a difference?: Who can say? But it does beg the question of how many more omissions were there. That is something MM will have to answer and he says he is going to answer all critics, etc. i look forward to that one.

[CarneVaca]

Jason, the 9/11 commission's report came out after the movie was made. It is hardly fair to use the report as a way to point out errors of fact in the movie.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

From
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in624585.shtml

CBS News Correspondent Jim Axelrod reports another pan of the film comes from a Republican congressman who's in the movie
and complains that Moore, who did an ambush interview with him on the street, failed to include his answers.

Moore shows himself telling Minnesota Rep. Mark Kennedy that "We are trying to get members of Congress to get their kids to enlist in the army... and go over to Iraq."

Kennedy's got two nephews in the military - and says he told Moore that one was on the way to Afghanistan - a fact Kennedy says should have been included in the film.
____________________________________________________________

Yes, MM should have put that in the film. This is an example of MM's self-admitted style of use of editing to make his point. It is at any cost and that is unfortunate. This, BTW, is an example of me finding fault with MMand this film. MM did not like the answer and the answer would have taken away from the message of the movie, so despite its truth, he omits it. How is that truthful

Bull****, Jason. I don't remember Moore asking anyone about nephews and other relatives. He was strictly talking about offspring.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

From
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in624585.shtml

CBS News Correspondent Jim Axelrod reports another pan of the film comes from a Republican congressman who's in the movie
and complains that Moore, who did an ambush interview with him on the street, failed to include his answers.

Moore shows himself telling Minnesota Rep. Mark Kennedy that "We are trying to get members of Congress to get their kids to enlist in the army... and go over to Iraq."

Kennedy's got two nephews in the military - and says he told Moore that one was on the way to Afghanistan - a fact Kennedy says should have been included in the film.
____________________________________________________________

Yes, MM should have put that in the film. This is an example of MM's self-admitted style of use of editing to make his point. It is at any cost and that is unfortunate. This, BTW, is an example of me finding fault with MMand this film. MM did not like the answer and the answer would have taken away from the message of the movie, so despite its truth, he omits it. How is that truthful

Is it a distinction without a difference?: Who can say? But it does beg the question of how many more omissions were there. That is something MM will have to answer and he says he is going to answer all critics, etc. i look forward to that one.

He should not have included it. He asked point blank for members on Congress to get their children to enlist. Children of other family members do not factor into that equation. End of story.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

However, the vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission has said that Bush did the right thing. "Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom," said Lee Hamilton, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana. [No Comment - I do not fault him for staying the classroom - but respect that other's do ]

That is the vice chairman's opinion, nothing more.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

In "Fahrenheit 9/11" (search) Moore also claims that the White House approved plans for planes to pick up relatives of Usama Bin Laden right after the attacks. But according to terrorism czar Richard Clarke (search), he alone approved the Saudi flights. [If Clarke did it alone, which he apparently says he did, then W would not be in on it, but maybe he was and Clarke is not saying. But, Clarke said a whole lot about other embarassing things so . . . ]

It makes no difference who approved the flights, it's still shady.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

In addition, Moore says that the departing Saudis were not properly processed by the FBI when leaving the country. That too is contradicted by the Sept. 11 commission, which said the Saudis were properly interviewed. [I have no comment because I have not read the 9/11 Commission's report. but, if true, then MM is wrong]

Do a google search, not even 25% of the Saudi's were interviewed. And they did not even interview all twentysomething bin Laden's.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Finally, Moore shows prominent members of the Taliban visiting Texas, implying that they were invited by then-Governor Bush. The Taliban delegation, however, was invited to Houston by UNOCAL (search), a California energy company. [Is this true and if so, who owned UNOCAL?]

False. Again, do a google search, the truth will set Faux News free. The Taliban members even had photos taken with Bush (which I was surprised to see not included in the film).

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Moore also doesn't mention that the visit was made with the permission of the Clinton administration, which twice met with Taliban members — in 1997 and 1998. [Well, this is no surprise, MM was not commenting on Clinton]

Clinton had nothing to do with it. Bush is the one who met with them.

[dissention]

Don't flame me, Goldie, but it was just too funny to pass up:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...7/120331.shtml

Sunday, June 27, 2004 12:01 p.m. EDT
Michael Moore Linked to Carlyle Group

In his film "Fahrenheit 9/11," Democratic Party propaganda-meister Michael Moore accuses President Bush of being too cozy with Osama bin Laden's relatives, claiming Bush once accepted money from an international investment consortium known as the Carlyle Group, on whose board bin Laden family members used to sit.

But it turns out that Moore, not Bush, may have the more active financial relationship with Carlyle.

Reports Sunday's New York Post: "The Carlyle Group - which [Moore] bashes in the movie as some sort of shadowy war profiteering company - has become part owner of Loews Cinemas, which is currently showing his film."
How much of Caryle's bin Laden-tainted cash has found its way into Moore's pockets - the portly propagandist isn't saying.

But Sunday's Newsday debunks his claim that President Bush has any financial links to Osama's kin.

Citing Craig Unger's book "House of Bush, House of Saud," Moore invokes the name of James R. Bath, who served with Bush in the Texas Air National Guard and who managed the Texas investments for the Bin Ladin Group during the 1970s. Supposedly, one of their investments was in George W.'s Arbusto Energy.

Reports the paper:

"Moore implies the bin Ladens wanted to curry favor with Bush while his father was CIA director. But Unger's reporting - omitted by Moore - says that Bath denies putting bin Laden money in Arbusto."

The president's father was once a Carlyle adviser, but cut ties with the group after 9/11, as did the bin Laden relatives.

_________________________________________________________________

That is some funny ****.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

He should not have included it. He asked point blank for members on Congress to get their children to enlist. Children of other family members do not factor into that equation. End of story.

True, but the intent is the same. This guy was trying to show he had loved ones there, which was MM's point. Yet, MM edits it out. That was not a nice thing to do IMO. But, I know I know MM has no faults (this is sarcasm)

[strandinthewind]

Well, it MM does not want Carlyle money . . . . he could refuse to show it in Lowes theaters But, he is not doing that. The guy has a point but it is a silly one because MM does not care about who pays to see this flim, etc. He has no problem taking money from any patron and nor should he and the partons have to see it in some theatre. Actually, the Carlyle Group should be thanking MM for the sales

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, it MM does not want Carlyle money . . . . he could refuse to show it in Lowes theaters But, he is not doing that. The guy has a point but it is a silly one because MM does not care about who pays to see this flim, etc. He has no problem taking money from any patron and nor should he and the partons have to see it in some theatre. Actually, the Carlyle Group should be thanking MM for the sales

Again, the Carlyle Group is not in control of Loew's as of yet. I thought I already told you that?