Producer for a new album

[dissention]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

I only mentioned the Velvet Underground as an example of how sales don't necessarily reflect the quality of the music.
But I adore the Velvet Underground and Lou Reed and personally I would be thrilled if Stevie did something in that vein. I would love to compare her to them (but can't)!

Too bad the poor sales reflected the poor music on Street Angel.

[jwd]

face of glass:

Originally Posted by jwd
For the record I think it was the lowest point in her career. BUT, if she was no longer artistically viable, The Dance would not have been as successful as it was, Enchanted would have bombed, TISL would have flopped, and hundreds of thousands of people would not be seeing her on the current FM tour.

The success of The Dance, TISL and SYW tours have very little to do with the material that Fleetwood Mac and Stevie release today. They are nostalgic things overall.

Well I wasn't just referring to the Tours, but also to the music that she wrote on TISL and SYW. A lot of good stuff coming from a nostalgia act, eh? And why discredit someone's "artistic abilities" because they rely heavily on classic hits? Isn't part of being artistic based on how well you perform those songs onstage by the way they're played and sung? I hardly think that people would be shelling out over $100 a show just to see some nostalgia band doing their songs poorly.

face of glass:

Originally Posted by jwd
Fleetwood Mac helps Stevie, but she's NEVER needed them since the mid 70s.

But she obviously needs the public image that she created when she was within FM, and the nostalgic package of the songs.

When you say she needs the public image she created when she was within FM, I think the key term here is, the image she created. Fleetwood didn't create it, she did, and she certainly doesn't need to be in FM to have that image. It's hers and hers alone.

[jwd]

dissention:

Originally Posted by jwd
First let me say that I never said Stevie was kicking ass in that time period, I simply said some may say so. For the record I think it was the lowest point in her career. BUT, if she was no longer artistically viable, The Dance would not have been as successful as it was, Enchanted would have bombed, TISL would have flopped, and hundreds of thousands of people would not be seeing her on the current FM tour.

Totally different times and places; we all know she got "it" back. I'm discussing how she wasn't artistically viable for most of the early nineties and mid nineties.

But you said this earlier in the thread:

"Now, I agree that TISL would have happened with or without the Mac reunion, but if she hadn't reuinted with the Mac, it would have had less exposure than Street Angel did. Heck, who knows if she would have even gotten a record deal without that reunion. She would have been forgotten by the masses and that's exactly what happened in '94 and up until the reunion. Without that reunion, her career would not have improved."

Doesn't sound like you had too much confidence in her "getting it back".

dissention:

Originally Posted by jwd
The inner demons like Klonopin, Epstein Barr, and the mid-life crises we all have to contend with at some point, with all the physical, mental, and emotional baggage that comes with it, were the problems Stevie had to contend with. Yet, she was still able to pen some rather good songs like "Rooms On Fire" and "Blue Denim", carry on with a solo career and a band one, and have moderate success on the road. Nobody stays on the highest of highs forever. It was a struggle for Stevie during that time period, but she got through it. To say she was no longer artistically capable of making good music and connecting with people is highly inaccurate in my opinion.

To my knowledge, she said she wrote the Mirror songs before going on Klonopin, so she wasn't taking any drugs at the time (although they could've been written when she was on coke, I don't know, she still penned some great songs then). Not a Blue Denim fan, so... And I never said she couldn't connect with people, NEVER. That's her gift, IMO.

She was on Klonopin for seven years. Shortly after she left Betty Ford in '86 or '87. Unless she wrote the songs before '87 she was on Klonopin when she wrote those songs.

Damn, I love "Blue Denim"!

But don't you think being able to connect with people has something to do with artistic viability or lack of?

dissention:

Originally Posted by jwd
We all know the music that she started to produce with the onset of TISL, and that would have sold itself to any record company. Fleetwood Mac helps Stevie, but she's NEVER needed them since the mid 70s.

I'll just have to laugh and agree to disagree.

Once again, you don't think she "had it back" enough to sell her own music without FM?! Okay, we'll just laugh together and agree to disagree.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

Only if you find me some alternative artists who have mentioned any of Lindsey's solo albums.

*sigh*
Well, it's come to this.
Personally I believe that the whole AOR tag to Fleetwood Mac has done some significant harm to them. While their music may have reached huge audiences because of that, it also put them in a box, a situation I've described on the previous page.
How different was their music from the stuff that was being made in the earlier '70s?
Just because the main target audience of Rumours (that was unintentional, as I believe it) was a bunch of thirtysomethings who had been through their divorces, identified with the songs and had given up on following all the latest trends of music, just because of that they're AOR? Soft-rock. How the hell do you express hurt and anger through softness?
The whole "anti-thesis of punk" thing eventually has been something of a disadvantage for the band.
Should their albums have been released in the earlier years of the '70s, then they might have the same kind of "artistic credibility" as Mr. Neil Young, Led Zeppelin, hell, even Pink Floyd have.
Alas, it didn't happen. Nothing could have changed the things at that point, not even Tusk.
You think Lindsey's mainstream because he's slick and shiny? Fine. I've never thought that being slick and shiny is something that only mainstream acts do, otherwise you wouldn't hear The Cocteau Twins or Dead Can Dance doing it. Prefab Sprout and The Blue Nile, too. How about The Smiths? Late period New Order?
But of course, if you think that only by being dirty and rugged one is alternative or is not following the beaten path then I guess that speaks of your preference of the American alternative over the British equivalent.
You like Sonic Youth, you like the Pixies. But where's the revolution in noise these days? As of now there's nothing new in it, you hear it every day when you open the window. Did Sonic Youth sell out to the early '90s mainstream, the grunge, with Dirty? I think they did. Our beloved Pixies are now out on a nostalgic tour and their albums always charted highly in the UK. So aren't they mainstream too? It isn't just a case of who sounds the most distorted, IMO.

Like I've said, Lindsey suffers commercially because he doesn't want to bow down to either side. At the same time he suffers from the label that's been stamped onto him. If the AOR listeners are supposed to be people with the typical middle class lives then I'm sure the listeners who want the "street credibility" will twirl their noses to the association. At the same time they're blocking their musical horizons.

You think Neil Young is more credible than Lindsey? I don't think so. Even when he supposedly turned his back to the mainstream with Harvest he still had a significant audience that he could rely on. Whatever followed in the '70s sold well enough. And his '80s experimental albums aren't to me anything else than Dylanish quirks. Intentional attempts to drive the audience away without any genuine interest in the music he's trying to make. Only those who want to appear unusual will name those among his best work, IMO.

Personally I'm glad that the change for Lindsey is coming surely but slowly.

When I see Marcello Carlin speaking of The Smiths or The Associates in his SYW review I can only nod my head in agreement. The same thing with his review of the Tusk reissue; Pere Ubu and Gang Of Four are mentioned. Add Talking Heads and The Clash. And I'd also add Joy Division and Wire, but also the Beach Boys, the Kingston Trio and Led Zeppelin. And many more. And I don't think that's being too unrealistic or too much under the influence of my often-mentioned fan-bias.

Stevie was picked up by the grunge acts not only because even on the early days she was expressing as much Patti Smith as Janis Joplin. And she is intimate and sincere and up with Neil Young in that alley, and she lived the decadent lifestyle to boot.
It's just weird that she hasn't recognized these qualities in her music so that we could get a true alternative (pun intended) solo album from her.

But yeah, we'll meet again under this topic, I'm sure.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by jwd

Well I wasn't just referring to the Tours, but also to the music that she wrote on TISL and SYW. A lot of good stuff coming from a nostalgia act, eh?

I think it's good too. But my opinion doesn't matter a thing here, I'm just a fan after all. Does the general public think the stuff she's doing now is up to the level of the past works? Where is the proof anyway?
As of now I think her recent writings have the same level of obscurity that Lindsey's music has. "POTU" and "Sorcerer" are still old songs, no matter what deep subtleties the new verse might add to the former.
I think the bargain bin status of TISL will be measured in years to come anyway, it's still too new for those. We'll see.

And why discredit someone's "artistic abilities" because they rely heavily on classic hits? Isn't part of being artistic based on how well you perform those songs onstage by the way they're played and sung?

I've rarely thought she's lackluster on stage. I've never stated that she's lost her artistic abilities in this regard. I've never thought she's lost her ability to move people, but I think the latter thing is very subjective anyway.
I've never said she's washed up, I've just said that the general public probably thinks so of her latest writings.

I think the key term here is, the image she created. Fleetwood didn't create it, she did, and she certainly doesn't need to be in FM to have that image. It's hers and hers alone.

Whereas my belief has always been that this image could never have existed without the music that the band was creating.
The way she acted, the way she dressed, the way she dramatically yelled and twirled, it all came from the way the band played and from the way the band had arranged the music.
It was the music that pushed her to the breaking point in "Rhiannon", it was the music that caused her to pull out one heck of a sexy vocal for "Dreams".

That's why I think she is in the band's shadow. While her successful solo career in the beginning of the '80s might prove otherwise, the success she's had since doesn't do it, for me at least.
The slump that was Street Angel could have destroyed her commercially successful career totally but it didn't happen, thanks to The Dance.
She was the one who initially wanted to benefit from it, she started her own solo tour very quickly after it and the attendance was lower because the public wanted to rather see all of the Rumours line-up on stage.
With the TISL tour she kept the flag flying and I applaud her for that.
I just don't think that right now she's in any better position in terms of her own material than the other members of the band. She can get it out on a large label easily but who will buy it, and more importantly, who will listen to all of it and learn to pick other favourites in addition to the singles?

Phew.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by jwd

But you said this earlier in the thread: 'Now, I agree that TISL would have happened with or without the Mac reunion, but if she hadn't reuinted with the Mac, it would have had less exposure than Street Angel did. Heck, who knows if she would have even gotten a record deal without that reunion. She would have been forgotten by the masses and that's exactly what happened in '94 and up until the reunion. Without that reunion, her career would not have improved."

Doesn't sound like you had too much confidence in her "getting it back". :shrugs:

Yup, that's exactly what I said and I stand by it. You're confusing artistic viability with commercial viability. TISL would have happened (probably not with the same songs) without the reunion, I was simply saying that it would not have had the same buzz or exposure without that push back into the spotlight from The Dance.

And no, I didn't have much hope that she would get it back. But she did and that's neither here nor there. Once again, I'm discussing her art and creativity in the early nineties.

Originally Posted by jwd

She was on Klonopin for seven years. Shortly after she left Betty Ford in '86 or '87. Unless she wrote the songs before '87 she was on Konopin when she wrote those songs.

I guess that shoots down the argument that she was lucid during the making of Tango.

Whole Lotta Trouble was written in Australia in '86, Long Way To Go was written in '85, Juliet had to be written in '86 or very early '87, I suspect that Doing the Best That I Can was written before or immediately after rehab; I don't know the rest. All I know is that I read an interview or article where she said that all of the songs were written beofre the Klonopin days.

But don't you think being able to connect with people has something to do with artistic viability or lack of?[/QUOTE]

Nope. Anyone can get up onstage and sing the same songs to the same audience and still have them connect. But if they can't write songs like they used to and have to resort to releasing stuff like "Kick It" or "Docklands," they've lost a helluva lot of their artistic ability and creativity. Lord, even Stevie admits she was not creative at all during these periods and that she wrote nothing really memorable.

Again, this is all my opinion.

Originally Posted by jwd

Once again, you don't think she "had it back" enough to sell her own music without FM?! Okay, we'll just laugh together and agree to disagree.

Nope. She needed that reunion tour to get her career back on track. Without it, she'd be lucky to get Street Angel's album sales.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by face of glass

"POTU" and "Sorcerer" are still old songs, no matter what deep subtleties the new verse might add to the former.

Don't you mean what deep subtleties the new verse written by Poe has?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

Don't you mean what deep subtleties the new verse written by Poe has?

Again, there's that "glee" that comes thru, when you find a supposed chink in Stevie's armor, that you can use to nitpick and throw in people's faces.

From as far back as I can remember, Stevie has said that one of the ways in which she writes, is to open up a chapter from one of her favorite books, read it, and then allow it to "filter thru" her.

All artists borrow ideas from others arists in one way or another, and it's not some kind of big deal.

So in case anyone is wondering, here are Poe's verses that inspired Stevie....

From 'Serenade': "The wearied light is lying down, and earth, and stars, and sea, and sky are redolent with sleep"

From 'Dreamland': "Mountains toppling evermore into seas without a
shore. Seas that restlessly aspire, Surging, unto skies of fire"

From 'Eulalie': "Now doubt-- now pain come never again"


The first verse of "Planets Of The Universe":

"The bright light is lying down
The earth and the sea and the sky
Is at rest with the ocean
And the days go by
They go into the seas that have no shores
Haunted by that same closed door
Looking up at skies on fire
Leaving nothing left of us to discover"

And the second:

"No doubt, no pain, come ever again
Let there be light in this lifetime
In the cool, silent moments of the nighttime"

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

So...Stevie had oversaturated the market and overexposed herself so much that people had no desire to see her or buy her album (i.e. they were sick of her)?

Well, I can't get enough... so she could release a new album every year and I wouldn't get tired of hearing her.
But yes, every artist is in danger of the backlash that usually follows "overexposure."

And given the fact that Stevie was visible every year, for years on end, there was no potential for some level of "nostalgia" to be built up around her. Which was the point I was making.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by face of glass

"Let's roll". (-Neil Young, 2001)

The tanking of Out Of The Cradle, or of any Lindsey Buckingham solo product for that matter, has always been because of the general diversity contained within the album. Parts of it is material for the listeners of classic rock, parts of it is material for the listeners of new wave and punk. The album doesn't bow down to any particular target group as a whole. Some may say that it's a desperate attempt to give "something for everybody (=nothing for anyone)". I say his musical schizophrenia is a description of a chaotic mind, a person who's not afraid of dealing with possessiveness, paranoia, anger, sarcasm, violence, plain weird and depressive (qualities of punk/new wave) or the happiness, ye typical love topics, smoothness, subtlety and spiritual elevation, the uplift (qualities of the hippie-drenched classic rock). He deals with all of that and sometimes he does 'em the same time, mixes them up, shakes and stirs them. Now when he does all that it should be obvious that if a single from an album reaches the public then it won't make his album a big success. Albums that are successes in the modern world are not bound to the general '60s sense of diversity. Should someone who liked "Trouble" buy Law And Order and expect more of the same then there would be an obvious disappointment. There is always something wrong in Lindsey's solo work for those who expect him to stay in one mold all the time and if one does not accept such diversity, a thing that is not encouraged in the modern world when the trend is to package, labelize and categorize everything, then one will not ever learn to appreciate at least some of his work.

I hate that I always have to qualify my comments by saying that I love Lindsey's music, but I'll do it again... I love Lindsey's music.
I'm not playing for the other team here, I'm right with all of the Lindsey-lovers.

But, Gaius, isn't it also possible that it's a rose-colored view to say that Lindsey's albums didn't sell too well because of their diversity?
Take into consideration that the singles were pushed to various radio formats, where any one of them had the potential to catch on and become a big hit.
Also take into consideration how many albums sell tons of copies on the strength of one big hit single. Did anyone care if the other songs on Chumbawamba's album didn't sound like "Tubthumping"? They still bought the album.

If one or two songs catch the public's eye, then it doesn't matter if they don't sound like the rest of the album.

I think one of the things that "hurt" Lindsey, in regards to sales, was the fact that his music was too eccentric for people who prefer Top 40 music, and too "artsy" for people who prefer rock & roll (ironically, Warner Bros. originally passed on signing Stevie as a solo act, because they were afraid her albums would be too "artsy").

I think it also all seemed a little too calculated and aloof, for it to capture people's hearts.

We can say that people just don't "get it," but if I'm told that that's a cop-out answer in regards to why people don't like"When I See You Again," then it's just as much of a cop-out when it comes to Lindsey's music.

We love it... who knows (or cares) why others don't.
And the same is true of 'Street Angel'... that it didn't have huge appeal, even to some of Stevie's own fans, doesn't mean that it's "crap." I'm not saying that it lived up to her previous work... although some of her songs are a tad hard for anyone to live up to... or that it was the best thing since sliced bread. It's just that some things strike a chord with people, and some things don't, and it doesn't make the music worthless.
In fact, I think it makes it that much more special and personal for those of us that it does reach.

Originally Posted by face of glass

Very little of her solo work will live on in the public minds anyway. I'd say that some of Bella Donna will, and that will happen to "Stand Back" and "Talk To Me" too, possibly.
But that's about it. And that's why I can't put Stevie amongst the greatest superstars; her public popularity is in the end very limited.

I think the 1.4 million people who bought 'Timespace' are a good indication that Stevie's solo music will live on. The album didn't contain any of Stevie's Mac classics (even if she had wanted to include "Silver Springs," so it would finally be available as something other than a b-side), and she only had a very minor hit with one of the new songs ("Sometimes It's A Bitch" peaked at #56)... so the album has sold on the strength of the music it contains.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Again, there's that "glee" that comes thru, when you find a supposed chink in Stevie's armor, that you can use to nitpick and throw in people's faces.

From as far back as I can remember, Stevie has said that one of the ways in which she writes, is to open up a chapter from one of her favorite books, read it, and then allow it to "filter thru" her.

All artists borrow ideas from others arists in one way or another, and it's not some kind of big deal.

So in case anyone is wondering, here are Poe's verses that inspired Stevie....

From 'Serenade': "The wearied light is lying down, and earth, and stars, and sea, and sky are redolent with sleep"

From 'Dreamland': "Mountains toppling evermore into seas without a
shore. Seas that restlessly aspire, Surging, unto skies of fire"

From 'Eulalie': "Now doubt-- now pain come never again"


The first verse of "Planets Of The Universe":

"The bright light is lying down
The earth and the sea and the sky
Is at rest with the ocean
And the days go by
They go into the seas that have no shores
Haunted by that same closed door
Looking up at skies on fire
Leaving nothing left of us to discover"

And the second:

"No doubt, no pain, come ever again
Let there be light in this lifetime
In the cool, silent moments of the nighttime"

ITA - I mean she did not quote him and her stuff is different - BTW - Poe is a source of inspiration for lots of people, that is why he is what he is. I think ther verses are completely different in meaning, but that is just me.

IMO as for the whole "could she have made a comeback without The Dance" - no one knows for sure. If they can, then they have a crystal ball For all we know, Stevie could have written other songs and had larger hits with them. No one can say with any certainty that would not have happened. But the point is The Dance did happen and she got a boost from that. We cannot change the facts or rewrite history. We can only speculate what would have happened without it. In other words, no one is right and no one is wrong IMO.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Again, there's that "glee" that comes thru, when you find a supposed chink in Stevie's armor, that you can use to nitpick and throw in people's faces.

From as far back as I can remember, Stevie has said that one of the ways in which she writes, is to open up a chapter from one of her favorite books, read it, and then allow it to "filter thru" her.

All artists borrow ideas from others arists in one way or another, and it's not some kind of big deal.

So in case anyone is wondering, here are Poe's verses that inspired Stevie....

From 'Serenade': "The wearied light is lying down, and earth, and stars, and sea, and sky are redolent with sleep"

From 'Dreamland': "Mountains toppling evermore into seas without a
shore. Seas that restlessly aspire, Surging, unto skies of fire"

From 'Eulalie': "Now doubt-- now pain come never again"


The first verse of "Planets Of The Universe":

"The bright light is lying down
The earth and the sea and the sky
Is at rest with the ocean
And the days go by
They go into the seas that have no shores
Haunted by that same closed door
Looking up at skies on fire
Leaving nothing left of us to discover"

And the second:

"No doubt, no pain, come ever again
Let there be light in this lifetime
In the cool, silent moments of the nighttime"

And if you don't see that as being akin to plagiarism, I'll never understand you.

I love the song, but c'mon. She took a LOT of the "new" stuff from Poe. She also took a lot of Fire Burning from Oscar Wilde, although I can't remember which work.

Bob Dylan did the same thing with his last album; he took loads of lyrics from a Japanese philosophy book.

Again, I don't see what Stevie did as a big deal, I just pointed out the flaw in what you were trying to pass off as something she wrote. That's just false. But god forbid if Stevie is called out on something. And jsut think, this all stemmed from being asked who we'd like as producer for her next album. I still go with Petty, BTW.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

ITA - I mean she did not quote him and her stuff is different - BTW - Poe is a source of inspiration for lots of people, that is why he is what he is. I think ther verses are completely different in meaning, but that is just me.

Oh please. Anyone can take someone else's work and change a few words to call it their own. Regardless if the meaning is different. By that token, I could take the lyrics to one of her songs, pass it off as my own, and say I'm not plagiarizing, I'm interpreting them differently.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

And if you don't see that as being akin to plagiarism, I'll never understand you.

I love the song, but c'mon. She took a LOT of the "new" stuff from Poe. She also took a lot of Fire Burning from Oscar Wilde, although I can't remember which work.

Bob Dylan did the same thing with his last album; he took loads of lyrics from a Japanese philosophy book.

Again, I don't see what Stevie did as a big deal, I just pointed out the flaw in what you were trying to pass off as something she wrote. That's just false. But god forbid if Stevie is called out on something. And jsut think, this all stemmed from being asked who we'd like as producer for her next album. I still go with Petty, BTW.

I wasn't trying to pass it off as something other than what it was. I simply stated that there were new verses in that song, that were not written in the '70s. So whether or not those verses were born entirely out of her own imagination, or not, they weren't written in the '70s.

And to say that she took "a lot" of "Fire Burning" from Oscar Wilde is innacurate.
Here are the two lines Oscar wrote, from his work "The Tragedy Of One's Own Soul," that Stevie reinterpreted for "Fire Burning":

"A huge fire was blazing."
"His eyes grew strangely bright."

She did, however, reinterpret a few other verses from that particular work, for "Freedom" (two lines), "Paper Doll" (one line), and her "Tragedy Of One's Own Soul" (one line and the title).

[strandinthewind]

Oh I love it when I get to pull out my big red dic.

From http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bi...a=plagiarizing

Main Entry: pla·gia·rize
Pronunciation: 'plA-j&-"rIz also -jE-&-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -rized; -riz·ing
Etymology: plagiary
transitive senses : to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source
intransitive senses : to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source
- pla·gia·riz·er noun
_____________________________________________________________

While Stevie certainly was heavily influenced by Poe, I think she transforms his words into her different words and uses her words to convey her story, which is different than Poe's story. That makes the difference for me. Thus, plagiarizing is perhaps too strong of a word.

As an aside, would we all be willing to admit Poe was a producer of Stevie