Favorite Closer

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

Ha. It's one of the worst songs ever recorded. The music doesn't flow with the lyrics, the lyrics themselves are so clunky and self-important, I can't stand it.

The lyrics to "Ghosts" are self-important?
I really do think we're listening to completely different songs sometimes!

I guess I like when Stevie is "self-indulgent"... since those tend to be the songs that, to me, are the most honest and revealing. Just because she's rich and famous doesn't mean she isn't susceptible to insecurity and loneliness, or that she can't write about it, simply because she happens to have more money than the rest of us.

Or maybe it's just that that level of self-reflection is too much for some folks.

(And I still say, dissention, that if you're going to fight for Lindsey's right to be self-indulgent, then you have to give Stevie the same leeway! )

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

The lyrics to "Ghosts" are self-important?
I really do think we're listening to completely different songs sometimes!

I guess I like when Stevie is "self-indulgent"... since those tend to be the songs that, to me, are the most honest and revealing. Just because she's rich and famous doesn't mean she isn't susceptible to insecurity and loneliness, or that she can't write about it, simply because she happens to have more money than the rest of us.

Or maybe it's just that that level of self-reflection is too much for some folks.

(And I still say, dissention, that if you're going to fight for Lindsey's right to be self-indulgent, then you have to give Stevie the same leeway! )

Oh no, I meant self-indulgent. Sorry.

I call out the same bouts of self-indulgence with Lindsey when I hear them (Soul Drifter comes to mind, but that's more egotistical than anything ). Fortunately, they're nowhere near as frequent as in Stevie's songs and they're not as obvious and literal. I mean, these lines make me cringe:

"Well I never thought I'd make it
Here in Hollywood...
I never thought I'd ever
Want to stay...
What I seem to touch these days
Has turned to gold...
What I seem to want
Well you know I'll find a way"

"To feel the empty spaces she's feeling
She depends on her music like a husband"

"You say I have everything
Well, I'm living on dreams and chains
But, I sing for the things money can't buy"

"She sits across the table...the same glass table
Cries to her friend...why am I so alone
He says, wo baby, baby, baby, baby
This is the path you have chosen
She probably goes under another name
Well, that's a good idea"

"Well the conversation rings in my head
Well you know me better than I know myself
Will you write this for me
He says no, you write your songs yourself
That made me stronger
It made me hold on to me"

You can call them beautiful, that's your right, but I call them crap. The self-reflection isn't what bothers me, it's the obviousness of it all. It's so obvious that she's singing about herself in situations that really don't apply to others that it just becomes, to me at least, a situation where I'm thinking to myself "Why do I really care about her conversations with Tom Petty?" I like that she uses those experiences, I just think that they would come off better if written in a more universal manner like almost all of her other songs. I simply don't care to listen to Stevie's self-flagellation for five minutes straight where all she does is drone on about how she couldn't write a song or that she's lonely because she decided on a career instead of a family. Not to mention that I find it a bit egotistical that she would think most of us want here about it in such ways that we really can't appreciate it. Get specific in the interviews, make it vague in the music (I can't believe I'm saying I want Stevie to be more vague )

I have an emotional response to Stevie's music, but I don't get an emotional response from her "me" songs.

Does any of this make sense?

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I guess I like when Stevie is "self-indulgent"... since those tend to be the songs that, to me, are the most honest and revealing. Just because she's rich and famous doesn't mean she isn't susceptible to insecurity and loneliness, or that she can't write about it, simply because she happens to have more money than the rest of us.

Yeah, and it's funny how the one Lindsey song that pretty much fits into the same mold, "Street Of Dreams", doesn't do it for you. Sure, you think Lindsey's meat and potatoes are his production but sometimes he can deliver in a way similar to Stevie.

Originally Posted by dissention

Not to mention that I find it a bit egotistical that she would think most of us want here about it in such ways that we really can't appreciate it.

I don't necessarily share the same opinion of all those lyrics you posted but Stevie sometimes tends to cross the line between the esoteric and the accessible. I think she came the closest to that with "Welcome To The Room...Sara", a song that has such obscure references that it would take a certain level of Nickseducation (=knowing details of her life, for instance) in order to take it close to one's heart. Thankfully I don't think she's done that too much.

Lindsey's indulgences obviously can go over some people's heads but I think that occasionally that's a case of not appreciating Buckingham's diversity. It's not just a case of simple likes and dislikes. I think all of his material is accessible but it does take some guts to learn to appreciate the various soundscapes, especially if one is not used to such shifts in tone and colour.

[Johnny Stew]

It definitely makes sense.
But I guess I'm an oddball, because I can usually find something to relate to (on some level) even in her most literal songs.

So even if I can't relate specifically to getting a pep-talk from Tom Petty, I can relate to getting a pep-talk from a close friend.
Or if I can't relate to Benmont Tench telling me that I'm lonely because I chose to be a rock and roll star, I can relate to someone reminding me that I'm living the outcome of some of the choices I've made.

I can also relate to her saying, "I sing for the things money can't buy me"... because she's saying that she does what she does, because it's the only thing that brings her happiness and fulfillment, when everything else is empty and meaningless.

And no matter how specific to Stevie's life the line, "to fill the empty spaces she's feeling/she's depends on her music like a husband," may be... I do relate to that 100%.

Anyway, I understand what you're saying... and one can always argue that some of the songs should be more universal (like I've said about the verses to "Two Kinds Of Love"). But then again, it's my opinion that one of the things that makes Stevie's narrative so compelling, is that she's not trying to see things thru anyone else's eyes but her own.
Certainly the downside of that, is that it has the potential to come across as narcissism... but the upside is that every one of her songs is uniquely personal, without being self-conscious. Just like reading a page out of someone's diary.

It's funny because this reminds me of what Bette Midler said the other night on the AFI's Greatest Movie Songs special.
She said that because Judy Garland made "Over The Rainbow" so intensely personal, it's why it then became so universal.

(By the way, I don't have a problem with "Soul Drifter"... but I do think "Street Of Dreams" is the most self-indulgent song Lindsey has ever written. Not saying it's a bad thing... in fact, I applaud him for writing something so candid... but he's definitely wallowing in that song, to an almost cringe-worthy degree.)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by face of glass

Yeah, and it's funny how the one Lindsey song that pretty much fits into the same mold, "Street Of Dreams", doesn't do it for you. Sure, you think Lindsey's meat and potatoes are his production but sometimes he can deliver in a way similar to Stevie.

Funny we both mentioned my opinion of that song, in posts that we were writing at the same time.

I really can't explain in a sensible way, what it is about "Street Of Dreams" that doesn't "do it" for me... since it absolutely fits into the kind of lyrics I usually fawn all over.

Maybe it's the delivery? Maybe it's the pace ("Can't get goooooooooooo-ing.... Fear is shoooooooooow-ing")?
I honestly don't know.
But I try to avoid saying anything negative about the song, because I know a lot of people do love it... and, as I said, I love the fact that he wrote something so reflective. You'll never hear me criticising him for that.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

It definitely makes sense.
But I guess I'm an oddball, because I can usually find something to relate to (on some level) even in her most literal songs.

It's not so much that I don't take away anything from those songs, I do to some degree, they just don't affect me like her other songs do. Sometimes I feel like I'm almost like a voyeur when listening to them. On the one hand, it does give you a better understanding of her other songs, but on the other, it just gets on your nerves because it's a person who is literally whining about not writing songs. I would like those songs better without so many personal anecdotes because they are just too specific at times.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

So even if I can't relate specifically to getting a pep-talk from Tom Petty, I can relate to getting a pep-talk from a close friend.
Or if I can't relate to Benmont Tench telling me that I'm lonely because I chose to be a rock and roll star, I can relate to someone reminding me that I'm living the outcome of some of the choices I've made.

Yeah, that's what I take away from the song, but again, I just have gripes with the way she presents the experiences.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Anyway, I understand what you're saying... and one can always argue that some of the songs should be more universal (like I've said about the verses to "Two Kinds Of Love"). But then again, it's my opinion that one of the things that makes Stevie's narrative so compelling, is that she's not trying to see things thru anyone else's eyes but her own.
Certainly the downside of that, is that it has the potential to come across as narcissism... but the upside is that every one of her songs is uniquely personal, without being self-conscious. Just like reading a page out of someone's diary.

I disagree with the songs not being self-conscious. I think that her songs are at their most liberated when she's totally vague and leaves room for interpretation. It's the off-the-cuff emotional writings that are most like that, for example Edge of Seventeen and Sable On Blonde. Those songs touch me very deeply because it's as if the person writing them is just pouring their heart out onto paper without thinking twice. I don't get the same feeling from the "me" songs. In those songs, I think she's very self-conscious about what she's writing and it takes away from the overall effect of the work.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

It's funny because this reminds me of what Bette Midler said the other night on the AFI's Greatest Movie Songs special.
She said that because Judy Garland made "Over The Rainbow" so intensely personal, it's why it then became so universal.

And why did you not tell me Bette was on TV?! I could've taped it and added to one of my many comp. tapes.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

(By the way, I don't have a problem with "Soul Drifter"... but I do think "Street Of Dreams" is the most self-indulgent song Lindsey has ever written. Not saying it's a bad thing... in fact, I applaud him for writing something so candid... but he's definitely wallowing in that song, to an almost cringe-worthy degree.)

There are some VERY cringe-worth moments in that song, namely the "shadow on my dad's stone" line. I think that Soul Drifter suffers from some narcissism and egomania, though.

In any case, I think this is one of the best discussions I've ever taken part in on the Ledge.

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by dissention

Ha. It's one of the worst songs ever recorded. The music doesn't flow with the lyrics, the lyrics themselves are so clunky and self-important, I can't stand it.

"It's just the song from the past that you're so frightened of
So you turn to your When I See You Again angel"

Sorry, Ghosts has great lyrics. The only part I don't like is the silver-haired girl line.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

OK now we stop agreeing. I love all those Street Angel songs, especially the one with Egypt Well I don;t cre much for the chimpanzee, but it's nothing compared to them Blue eyes

Kick It and Jane are two of the album's better songs.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by dissention

Well, it was good while it lasted.

I like most of her solo stuff (I'm still not that keen on RAL, but I've warmed to it), but I can't tolerate Street Angel. Her singing is just blah, there's no passion to it. Half of the songs she didn't even write and the ones she did write aren't very good. And the production is so muddy and middle-of-the-road. If we want to get specific, the artwork is horrendous, too.

On a positive note, though, I do adore Greta and Just Like A Woman. Love Is Like A River is a good rocker with incomprehensible lyrics.

I agree that Love Is Like A River is good. I think it would work well live, but it will never happen. Greta is not very good, but I really like the demo.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

It's funny because this reminds me of what Bette Midler said the other night on the AFI's Greatest Movie Songs special.
She said that because Judy Garland made "Over The Rainbow" so intensely personal, it's why it then became so universal.

I made the same Stevie connection when I watched!

- Jake

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

So I can assume you like Think About It? Everybody else here seems to dislike it, but I love it.

- Jake

I LOVE Think About It, always have.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

I agree that Love Is Like A River is good. I think it would work well live, but it will never happen. Greta is not very good, but I really like the demo.

- Jake

I dig Greta. One of her better performances on SA. And I like the lyrics a lot.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

And Family Man, well you know, is quite the other way...

- Jake

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by dissention

It's so obvious that she's singing about herself in situations that really don't apply to others that it just becomes, to me at least, a situation where I'm thinking to myself "Why do I really care about her conversations with Tom Petty?"

I know what you mean. I totally agree with you on this one. The lyrics and concept of this song are weak, but I like the overall song, the music and singing are great, but the content is so trite.

However, I have to disagree about songs like Ghosts and After the Glitter Fades---those songs are personal in a different way. I mean she was really going through some tough sh*t when those songs were written and you can feel the pathos there, I mean, I was moved by them and I can feel her pain in those songs. I can also relate to some of it to a certain degree, for instance, After The Glitter Fades is about coming to terms with your disillusionment after interfacing with "the real world" but still finding the strength to perservere in spite of it all and achieve the goals you set for yourself. Makes sense to me. Her songs can be universal, it's all how you choose to spin them. However, to write a song about how you were having writer's block is a bad idea, not too exciting really. Stevie should have just ditched the idea for that song and sung something else to that tune!

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by cliffdweller

I LOVE Think About It, always have.

And I love the version on re-mastered Rumours as well!

- Jake