Which one is the best lyricist ?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by face of glass

No intention of knocking anyone here Johnny, it's just my perception I'm bringing out again

You still probably remember when I stated that laughing can be as deep as crying and that's why I don't buy into the "Stevie is deeper than the others" mentality that I know some people have around here.

I connect with "Family Man" as much as I connect with "Gypsy" (although I wouldn't like to list the various reasons again ) and that is because the former makes me laugh and makes me completely giddy while the latter makes me cry, even in front of people. It's totally different things that Stevie and Lindsey can do; the Lindsey tracks that make me cry like Stevie songs do I can count with the fingers of one hand and the Stevie songs that give me some sense of the same fun I get with Lindsey are of the same number. These rare occasions that I'm talking about are "Stand Back", "Jimmy Come On Back" and "Say You Will"; "You And I Part One", "Street Of Dreams" and "Down On Rodeo". I know they're not related to each other and don't sound alike but they just hit this weird nerve in me.

My problem with Stevie's solo work has been that she very often seems to be about the artistic depth and seriousness only; she very rarely lets her hair down or explores the other sides of her psyche. That's why she moves me somewhat less than Lindsey does; in my own twisted idea of what a human being should be I think Lindsey appears more humane than Stevie.

But it's just my opinion and we should also note that it's Lindsey who's overtly serious in interviews while Stevie is always spontaneous and humorous. Which is great, as far as I'm concerned.

Hi Gaius!

Trust me, I'd be the last one to discount the importance of humour.

A lot of Lindsey's song do make me smile, and are a whole lot of fun (though I can't recall ever finding myself laughing outright. Not even "Family Man"!).

I think that there are a lot of "fun" songs out there (Harry Nillson's "Coconut," Jimmy Buffett's "Margaritaville," any number of Weird Al Yankovic songs, heck, even the "Macarena"), and those songs, as well as songs like "Bwana" and "Johnny Stew," are important, because life needs levity... but for a song to truly affect me in a deep-down way, I have to feel like the lyrics are offering me a glimpse into the songwriter's psyche.

Not just the "fun guy at parties" part, but the parts that we don't tend to let other people see.

I think that's why I love "When I See You Again" so much (sorry to come back to that song once again)... Stevie is baring her soul on that one. She's despondent, alone and traumatized by a broken love-affair, and there's nothing left to do but walk the hallways, and stare at the stairs, and obsess over what her lover might say to her, if he could see her now.

Some people hate that song, and feel it could be better written (or better sung), and that's fine... but I'm left feeling as if Stevie just shared her deepest, darkest secrets. So it moves me to no end.

I'm not saying that makes her "better" than Lindsey (I hate the word "better," by the way), I'm just saying it's what gives her the edge... in my lone opinion... in these matters.

So while "Empire State" and "Dancing Across The USA" are terrific songs, and a whole helluva lot of fun, I'm never going to "connect" with them, the way I connect with Stevie's songs. Or the way I connect to songs like "I'm So Afraid" or "Say Goodbye" (Lindsey's best lyrics ever, but, admittedly, not my favorite production-wise).

But again, this is why I always stress that Fleetwood Mac has something for everyone.
Whether it's Christine, Lindsey or Stevie, there's someone in this version of the band whose viewpoint and personality, just about anyone can find to be relatable.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I think that there are a lot of "fun" songs out there (Harry Nillson's "Coconut," Jimmy Buffett's "Margaritaville," any number of Weird Al Yankovic songs, heck, even the "Macarena"), and those songs, as well as songs like "Bwana" and "Johnny Stew," are important, because life needs levity... but for a song to truly affect me in a deep-down way, I have to feel like the lyrics are offering me a glimpse into the songwriter's psyche.

Not just the "fun guy at parties" part, but the parts that we don't tend to let other people see.

Well I personally think that in material like that the songwriter can be exposing his/her psyche to us. I think "Family Man" is as soul-searching as "WISYA", but that's in a sense of perverse fun. Like I said in another thread, the track has awfully banal lyrics and it's stuff that can come to my head, at least when I'm really tired. So I identify with that a lot. Especially with the mockery of those lyrics that the voice treatments convey.

So I think that's another side that no one would ever want people to see, except through art of course. You can always come up with vague explanations of it anyway.

I'm imagining someone glancing at the track titles of TITN and thinking that "Family Man" is a typical title of a song for the AOR band that Fleetwood Mac is supposed to be. Yes, it has shades of mainstream but it seems to be making fun of the whole idea.

So whereas Lindsey is more self-conscious and calculating than Stevie when he puts his pieces of music together, he can also be just as arresting for me. Even when it seems like he's just having fun.

So from now on I will be the ultimate "Family Man" defender on these boards, much the same as your relationship with "WISYA". And I can see how the latter can be moving for you, and others. She's just never gonna let us go.

[Merf]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Oh, lighten up Chiffonie!

[GardenStateGirlie]

Lindsey has some really incredibly deep and beautiful songs, truly he does. While Stevie is the songstress...a totally prolific writer who occassionally dabs in playing a musical instrument, it's Lindsey who has his hands in everything. When I hear the name Lindsey Buckingham, I don't immediately think, "wow, he's a great lyricist," I think, "wow, he's an amazing guitarist." I dare say that Lindsey would agree...it's Stevie's forte and always will be. He is the Renaissance Man in Fleetwood Mac, contributing much more than lyrics which, IMO, other than her haunting vocals, is all Stevie contributes. Honestly, there are times when I get much more emotion out of his guitar playing and his production of songs (which are often at times Stevie's) than I do out of what he has written. I love you, Lindsey Buckingham but I think Stevie is the total lyricist. She lives and breathes her poetry and lyrics. You live and breathe the studio and your guitar. It's not about whose songs make the most sense...it's about who spends the most time and creative energy on what and clearly it's Stevie with the lyrics. Of course, we can't discount good old Christine either but I still don't think she's the best lyricist...regardless of the fact she churned out some hits for the band.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by wondergirl9847

My birthday is tomorrow! May babies...RULE!!

Oh then I wish you all the best! Have a nice day!
Stefan

[face of glass]

Yeah, I agree with Marissa there. And I'd also like to add that Lindsey works in terms of albums as artistic portraits than just thinking of them as a bunch of songs (with or without the homogenous sound). So while there may be some incomprehensible moments (in that they don't generate much feeling) on Law And Order for me, they fall together when the album is looked at as a whole. The traditional '60s mentality at work once again.

And while Stevie's lyrics can often be interpretated on their own without the music (as the comments at BuckinghamNicks.net show us, for instance) with Lindsey it's sometimes inaccurate to separate the lyrics from the music if one wants to analyse them. They go together in the end, IMO.

[Cammie]

Well...if you want all girly stuff, as for ME...I Love and
Adore Guy Stuff!Lindsey's WORDS Rule My Heart!Sky

[rianbay1]

[QUOTE=face of glass]
My problem with Stevie's solo work has been that she very often seems to be about the artistic depth and seriousness only; she very rarely lets her hair down or explores the other sides of her psyche. That's why she moves me somewhat less than Lindsey does; in my own twisted idea of what a human being should be I think Lindsey appears more humane than Stevie.
QUOTE]


Wow. I would have said this same EXACT thing about Lindsey.

[CarneVaca]

There is not cut-and-dry answer to this question. Early on, Stevie was by far way ahead. These days, I'd go with Lindsey.

[David]

Originally Posted by Lala

Awww...poor Lindsey doesn't have any votes. It's not that his songs aren't good...cuz they are...but Stevie is the best. Her lyrics are so obscure but they can mean different things to different people, and they all mean something to her.

I find this view as fascinating as it is widespread. What is traditionally not considered a virtue in a literary sense -- obscurity that skirts near-total senselessness -- has become one for legions of people. I happen to love Stevie's lyrics, despite my utter lack of critical regard for them; as far as I'm concerned, she is not -- in any sense I can support logically -- a gifted wielder of words. She doesn't seem to me to have any special feel for words or language in general; her lyrics are rife with verbal inexactitude of malaproprian proportions, & overreliance on the stock symbols & images of fairy tales, tossed about in her songs, hither & yon, like a seal pup by a killer whale. Yet her songs live & breathe, beyond my ability to understand. When I hear her belt her way through "The Nightmare," with its artifically pumped-up melodrama that's basically an odiferous mixture of musty Victorianism & romance-novel cliche, I'm totally hooked. I'm sucked in to her little world, & for the time being, that world is the most fascinating place to be. So, for me, Stevie is the best lyricist in the band, because she stumbles on that arresting imagistic "hook," usually inadvertently, & you suddenly see it all so clearly . . . "I stood with you against the storm/And I tried once again."

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by David

I find this view as fascinating as it is widespread. What is traditionally not considered a virtue in a literary sense -- obscurity that skirts near-total senselessness -- has become one for legions of people. I happen to love Stevie's lyrics, despite my utter lack of critical regard for them; as far as I'm concerned, she is not -- in any sense I can support logically -- a gifted wielder of words.

Thanks, David. If I said this, it would just be dismissed as Stevie hating because I am a bigger fan of Lindsey's.

I believe Stevie has resonated with so many people through the years more because of her delivery and persona than the words themselves.

[UT-BABY]

I would have to say Stevie...although Lindsey's writing on the last album seems to be more mature. I think Christine's songs are really good...and I love her keyboards...but I think some of her lyrics are cheesy.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I believe Stevie has resonated with so many people through the years more because of her delivery and persona than the words themselves.

But then again she couldn't have sung just anything; the lyrics had to go along with her image, or actually the image had to go along with the words.

And still, no matter how some people think of her lyrics as "high-school poetry", it mattered a lot many teenagers who identified with her, before Madonna came along at least. And I don't think they're high-school poetry myself, especially when it seems like she lives through them all.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by rianbay1

Wow. I would have said this same EXACT thing about Lindsey.

Like I said, in interviews Lindsey is laughably serious, so much so that they can be occasionally be unbearable reading for me (unbearable in that I can't stop laughing ). Stevie is often very humorous and honest, uses less $100 words and seems to be a more comfortable person to talk to overall. Which is good because if she was to have the same serious artistic posturing that Lindsey does then I'd probably stop reading her interviews altogether.

But in music it's a totally different thing. Stevie reveals her heart to us in the Tusk songs in that she's damn vulnerable in there. Lindsey builds this huge wall of sound around himself but even then he lets us see through the cracks and tells us that he's not alright at all.

Not to mention that it's he who has most of the uplifting material on the FM albums; the necessary hedonistic rush that tells us not to take anything too seriously. Stevie, on the other hand, never seems to be making fun of herself or her "first love, the songs".

There's outright beautiful and funny childishness in "Not That Funny" and "I Know I'm Not Wrong", the playful can be found in the faster songs on Tusk and in something like "Empire State" or "Red Rover", the self-mockery in "Family Man", the exaggerated, intentionally sarcastic male bravado in "Come" and the cartoonish humour in the treated vocals in "Bwana", "September Song", "Family Man" (again!) and even "Wrong".

Stevie hasn't tried any of the above in her music and that's why for me she isn't humorous in that area. But, she doesn't necessarily need to do it. After all she wanted to totally concentrate on her image/lyrics/delivery connection and that obviously meant total seriousness for her. David has a better grasp of this than I do up there. I've never seen any self-parody in Stevie's music myself (although I'm sure many people who are not fans can see it a lot) but she doesn't really need it anyway.

And for me this isn't about interviews or who's more natural on stage. The studio albums will survive above all that and that's where Lindsey appears funnier, and therefore more humane (in my preferences, of course) than Stevie.

Let's hope there's no Nicksbashing on the horizon now.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by David

as far as I'm concerned, she is not -- in any sense I can support logically -- a gifted wielder of words.

I'm totally hooked. I'm sucked in to her little world, & for the time being, that world is the most fascinating place to be. So, for me, Stevie is the best lyricist in the band, because she stumbles on that arresting imagistic "hook," usually inadvertently, & you suddenly see it all so clearly . . . "I stood with you against the storm/And I tried once again."

Hmmmm.....I see a glaring contradiction in this post.