i hate George Bush!

[Hawkeye]

one minute your making sense Lux, the next you're not. I agree about the Pledge, it should not be said very freaking morning, it looses it's meaning. I say say it at special sproting events and stuff, but not every morning like robots. And no one ever actually SAYS it, it's just part of the motions.

But Imperialist America, are you joking. We have NEVER had ANY intrest in talking over the world, like all other European countries USED to. England didn';t give up alot of it's colonies untila after WWII but America has had like 5 colonie in it's whole history. we could take over Canada in an instant. We choose not to.

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Lux

My God, I didn't see that post earlier. Having said this, you don't understand why others would want to shove a sharp stick up your arse?

This is what we assume the mentality is in America, but we also assume you don't go around verablising it. America is not the land of the free. What are you free from? For christ's sake, you can't even burn your own flag as a form of protest without going to prison. Sounds like repression to me. And what the hell does 'best country there is' mean? These kinds of statements do nothing but make the world cringe. It makes me more inclined to favour the terrorists!

The victims of the NY terrorists attacks didn't deserve that, but the country sure needed a wake up call. Instead of blaming crazy bearded men, perhaps people could take a look at what could have provoked them. And don't pretend they're jealous of your 'freedoms' and your way of life. Jesus, it goes far deeper than that.

You're right...it must be the billions of tax dollars in aid that goes to countries all over the world. Or, maybe it was all the blood of our soldiers spilled on foriegn shores helping to protect other nations through two world wars and other conflicts...

But, that's just me...

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Let me explain my bestcountry statement. I'm sure that seems quite dumb or whatever, but when has there ever been a war in America, I mean IN America. We have never ever been bothered with a war on our soil. It's the safest country to live for sure (minus 9/11 of course but that was such an isolated incident)

Revolutionary, War of 1812, Civil War, Spanish American War, Mexican war, French and Indian War, & various other conflicts pre-dating the formation of the 13 colonies.

But in modern times, which is what I assume you meant, you are correct.

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Lux

Safest, perhaps. Because it owns the most weapons. You have enough weapons to blow the rest of the world off the map. In every day life, no, it is not the safest. It is far, far from that.

Australia and England are the nest best countries? What about greater Britain, do we include them too? Our government supported the war in Iraq (with the majority of the population in both cases, against the involvement), is that why we're 'second best'?

Relax folks...being vocally proud of your country isn't a crime.

And by the way, we do have most of the nuclear weapons, but I would rather have all of those here rather then in the hands of North Korea or Iran. Agreed?

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by dissention

Eek. Let's not talk about them or I'll be blown off the board. Palestine gets a raw deal sometimes, IMO.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Sorry...I just shot a diet sprite out of my nose!

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

.
.
I meant to say that earlier too. Great Point. Those two oceans are like our best friends. And whoich is probably why I put Austrailia at number 2. You guys are probably safe then us. Who's ever heard of any war involving Austrailia. And you guys got fleetwood MAc to come to your Country, how can you beat that.

Well...the two World Wars come to mind...

Rob

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

I know. I was feeling this wave of contentment due to the fact that I wasn't being despised by people. That sensation never seems to last long. I can always be assured of pissing people off.

Anyway, to the imperialism thing. America doesn't actually have claim to territories in the sense that Britain and Rome did. America does have extreme financial influence. To a much lesser degree America is taking over Australia's interests. For example, the Free Trade agreement with Australia will screw me over. We are now subject to some American laws.

But I mean America is imperialistic in the sense that it goes to great lengths to ensure it's financial interests are a priority. The Shah? Pinochet? The removal of Noriega? America will remove leaders at will.

Touche' Touche'

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Lux

If you're going for safety, England isn't necessarily your place. When my parents lived there (in the '70s) there were the occasional bombings (IRA).

Well, without being too literal, that is a part of the reason that many hate America. Politically, people need to know about what's going on. On a personal level, mention that someone's American and you usually get the eye roll combined with an understanding groan. It's not meant to be entirely insulting, it's just commonly accepted that the America is likely to be not only ignorant but arrogant. Americans seem to go on about the French. I think that generalisation stops at the American border and the word 'French' switches to 'American'.

That wasn't meant as an insult to you guys personally, it's just my description of what we, as outsiders, see.

I thought it had more to do with envy...or so I've been told by friends in Europe....can't think of any other reason. Especially with all the support and alliances between most of these countries over the years...

Rob

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

Woah. Are we agreeing? Shall we savour this?

Or are you being sarcastic?

Oh no, when I am wrong I'll readily admit it - usually with the fencing term of "touche'" - I think it adds a little flavor

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Lux

But Israel is the number enemy of its neighbours. That's not democracy working well in the middle east. You can't just slap a 'democracy' in the middle east and expect it to work.

Riiiiight...and the regimes and monarchy's in that region have done so much to promote economic growth and peace...

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Lux

You cannot expect praise for giving aid, when you helped put them in that position to begin with. Resources are creating an income for the larger companies, stripping the nation of wealth and causing them to resort to aid. If America actually gave **** about the wellbeing of others, it would reverse Third World Debt. It's one of the greatest crime. No, America is not solely responsible at all, but it is a large contributor.

As far as 'the blood of our soldiers spilled on foreign shores'.....America only steps in when it's in their interests. It certainly didn't jump at the chance to protect Britain. You think America cared about the people of Vietnam?

We just had ANZAC day (which commemorates the landing at Gallipoli). Our soldiers were killed defending other nations but if we also agressively enforce our interests upon other nations that doesn't hold up as an excuse for their hatred of us. In fact it doesn't even make sense.

Who's looking for praise? Just making a point.

I personally feel that we should reallocate most of our foriegn aid to more domestic issues. I would also love for the US to enact the Monroe Doctrine again. But it isn't possible in this modern age. We keep getting dragged back into something.

I know full well about Gallipoli and Australia's involvement in world conflict.

The crazy thing is that the same people who bitch about the US being the world police would bitch even more if we withdrew all support, aid and involvement. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

Most of the hate towards America, and it isn't everyone, is rooted in envy. ANd it would be that way with any country that was the dominate world power.

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Lux

Well that's laughable. You couldn't make most of my friends even visit the US due to apathy (although this is unfounded because as we know, individual Americans are rarely as annoying as the nation as a whole), let alone want to live there. Know for a fact that we don't generalise America (as a whole) to be ignorant and arrogant because we've envious.

To clear the air...I did NOT make that assertion myself...it's what I have been told by various people I've met from various countries...

FYI.

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Lux

Before I go any further and people think I hate Americans, this isn't the case.

I had the American government (and most of previous times too) and I simply state the generalised opinion of people in my society, towards Americans. When we know them, they're (usually) fine, and our television are most often splattered with them, but we also find the people as a whole to be groan-worthy. We're always taking the piss. I think they summed it up when one of our comedy shows stuck a vox-pop reporter on the streets somewhere in the US and asked people what they thought of the government's stance against a particular nation (I forget which, but it was one which posed no threat to the US at all), that being that they are preparing for an attack. We like to make fun of the American public's lack of world knowledge and their strange obsession with waving their flag and being 'patriotic' despite not knowing anything about these other countries that they claim to be better than.

I sometimes feel the same way watching our own news channels...they pick the biggest moron in the crowd to interview. BUT, most of the people in this country are not that way. There are many of us that are very well versed on world affairs. Just because I disagree with your world view and see things differently does not mean that I am any less knowledgeable.\

ANd we all know how I feel about assuming!

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Lux

As far as 'the blood of our soldiers spilled on foreign shores'.....America only steps in when it's in their interests. It certainly didn't jump at the chance to protect Britain. You think America cared about the people of Vietnam?

Assumptions and opinions. Again, I'm confused...should we help in foriegn affairs or mind our own business??

And so what if we act in our best interest. How often do you act on things in life that isn't in your best interest?

In Vietnam, our political climate was one of stopping the spread of communism. Vietnam was a mistake...especially in hindsight. But they had their reasons at the time. It was a poorly conducted military campaign.

AND...the US was pretty much funding Britains war efforts prior to being forced into the war. And, yes, you're right, defeating the Nazi's were in our best interest, as well as the rest of the world's.

Rob

[Johnny Stew]

My close friend, David, is extremely well-travelled, and he assures me that the hatred directed towards the US is not born out of "envy," but rather the feeling that Americans have an attitude of superiority and entitlement.
You know... "Ugly Americans."

And I have to say that when I look around, I can see why other countries feel that way.