so, lindsey or stevie? who owns this album more?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Good point. Furthermore, let's all ruminate on this for a while: In other songwriter/musician setups, Lindsey would be getting co-writing credit for a lot of these Stevie songs. Hell, he gave somebody credit for Come just for coming up with a riff. Think about that.

no they would not You have to write the actual words to get publishing credit, esp. when the words are registered prior to the song's evolution. Plus, I LB gets paid as a producer whose job it is to produce Stevie in this context within FM. Interestingly, Stevie often credits other people in the music credits under the name of each song

Also, I do not think anyone is arguing LB is not brilliant with transforming Stevie's work. Stevie repeatedly says that and certainly I freely admit that. It is just some people are instantly and seemingly smugly dismissive of her talent and make smart remarks that boldly state or at least imply Stevie has no talent and is lucky to be in the same room as LB. I know not everyone has that smugness and Lord knows the chiffonheads are easily enraged ( ) - but it does come across that way and some of it is intentional. And that is ashame to me because I think they both brilliantly shine at what they do. AND - they both have respect for each others' talent. But, some, not all, people are ensconced in their camps so the LB v. SN fighting continues.

Whatever

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

I have always thought so, but hesitated to mention this in fear of being attacked by Stevie fans.

So when Stevie adds a significant harmony part, tambourine part, extra voical, or whatever to LB's songs, she should get credit too by this rule

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

Are you being sarcastic? You're not comparing as equals the addition of a tamborine part to the fact that Stevie gave her songs to Lindsey as tunes, and he transformed them into classics?

What I am trying to say is you seem to think the river of talent flows only one way and that Stevie sits there and does nothing. That is ashame because obviously LB does not feel that way. AND - clearly the doc. on VH-1 showed Stevie was very proactive in the crafting of her songs from the demos. So, it is not, as you imply, all LB. Stevie is in there too even though LB is brilliant at transforming them. Yet, I hear no praise for her.

[Hawkeye]

May I add that Stevie produced the song Bombay Saphires from her TISL album. We know there's at least ONE song out there that was ALL Stevie and no one else. And to me Bombay Saphires is in the top 3 best songs on TISL.

[Johnny Stew]

Stevie writes the songs. Lindsey produces them.
I've never known a producer to get co-writing credit on anyone's songs, simply because of ideas they contributed to the finished product.

As has been stated before, Lindsey builds upon what Stevie has already written. He doesn't write them from the ground up for her... he takes her songs, and builds upon them, and polishes them.

As evidenced in the documentary, Stevie's "demos" these days could damn-near pass for a finished product themselves.

And using a song like "Sisters Of The Moon" for example... in the piano demo, Stevie is clearly playing, almost note for note, what Lindsey ultimately made into a guitar part.

Sure, his guitar playing has far more finesse than her piano playing... but in a case like that, we're being offered a good view that not all of the terrific little parts in Stevie's songs, are entirely of Lindsey's doing.

Lindsey deserves credit for the amazing talents he has, and for his unique production style, but I don't believe that he deserves half the credit for Stevie and/or Christine's songs.
Unless you want to give Richard Dashut half the credit for 'Law And Order' and 'Out Of The Cradle,' or Gordon Fordyce half the credit for 'Go Insane.'

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I think you're characterizing those of us who are bigger fans of Lindsey than Stevie with a bit of a general brush. I'm always trying to point out nuances. My issue with Stevie is that I think she became lazy about writing and editing after The Wild Heart.

My issue with Stevie is that most of her stuff after 1983 was inferior to what came before.

And it's my opinion that Lindsey hasn't really done anything all that experimental or outside-the-box since 'Go Insane' in 1984.

Everything else since then has been a refining of the techniques he first used between 1979 and 1984.
Some would call that "laziness" too, but I don't see it that way, and I don't see it as "lazy" that Stevie hasn't gone too far out of the parameters she set for herself in the late '70s and early '80s.

They're both making the music they want to make, and that's the way it should be.

But there's no denying that Stevie receives far more criticism from certain factions for her "laziness" than Lindsey does for repeating certain riffs & solos, or for repeating certain production techniques (channel-panning vocals, the use of VSOs, etc.).

Still, Lindsey continues to excite you in ways that Stevie doesn't, and that's fine. As I've said countless times, we can't all love the same things.
But there are plenty of us who feel that Stevie is at the top of her game now, and we're not deluded, misguided or unenlightened, as Stevie fans are so often accused.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Lux

By that I would imagine that his songs really didn't appeal to the person, but they don't mind the harmonies. Much the same as her songs don't appeal to me, to a degree. I'm only referring to myself, but whilst most of her songs don't appeal to me, I usually find that within the ones that do, it's is in fact Lindsey's contribution that is creating the appeal. How can you argue that what I believe is appealing to me? Are you telling me my tastes are.......wrong?

Anyone who knows me, knows that that's not what I was saying at all.

We all have favorites in Fleetwood Mac, no matter which line-up is being discussed. There's just no getting around that, as it's a matter of personal taste. And it's one of the things that makes Fleetwood Mac so amazing in my eyes... that there really is something for practically everyone.

But for a Lindsey fan to say, "if I like a part in one of Stevie's songs, it must be something Lindsey contributed," or for one of Stevie's fans to say, "If one of Lindsey's songs is any good, it's because Stevie's voice made it better," is short-sighted in my opinion.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Lux

Can't argue with that. Not referring to Stevie's music at the moment (I haven't thought about that enough to comment), rather the fact that you are appreciating her current work. I feel that same way about Lindsey's current work.

Trust me, Lux, I feel the same way about Lindsey's current work, too.

I don't think every song on 'Say You Will' is the best thing he's ever done, but certainly most of the songs rank right up there, and I'd say he's at the top of his game, too.

"Murrow" is one of my favorite songs of all time... by anyone. I could listen to that song a dozen times and never get sick of it.
I also can't speak highly enough about "Miranda," "Peacekeeper" and "Bleed To Love Her."
"Say Goodbye" has what are probably the best lyrics Lindsey has ever written... though as I've confessed in past threads, the production on that one doesn't really "do it" for me. However, my appreciation of the sound of it and "Red Rover" increases when I change their positions in the running order of the album.

I've had a habit of placing safe-bets lately, and I think it's a safe bet to say that the next Fleetwood Mac album will be even better than 'Say You Will.'
And for as much as I love 'SYW,' that's saying a lot!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Lux

I appreciate all that you're saying, except this part.....

I don't feel the need to say that I only like Lindsey's part because I'm the Lindsey fan. When I first started liking FM I didn't know who was who in the band. But I liked all the songs that turned out to be written by Lindsey, and the remaining songs that I liked, it so happened that what I liked about them was the guitar parts. It's not a matter of excusing the fact that I like some Stevie songs by saying it's because of Lindsey. It's just that his work on those songs is what I appreciate, whereas the songs by themself don't usually work for me. I don't think it's 'short-sighted', rather it's what appeals to my ears.

I should have worded my comment better... I didn't mean that I think it's short-sighted to like one member or the other's contributions to a song... again, that's personal taste, and there's nothing wrong with it... but rather that i think it's short-sighted to give all of the credit for a song's appeal to one or the other.

[David]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

But there's no denying that Stevie receives far more criticism from certain factions for her "laziness"

Only insofar as she doesn't move her tushy onstage. But her solo albums, especially her most recent one, are obviously tenderly crafted labors of love.

Stevie has forged, through vocal & visual prowess, a persona in rock that is unique. She is a maker of startling statements by means of personality & retenue. A long time ago, she said, with uncanny prescience, "If I was going to be in rock 'n' roll, then I was going to be the most elegant rock 'n' roll singer of all."

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Lux

By that I would imagine that his songs really didn't appeal to the person, but they don't mind the harmonies. Much the same as her songs don't appeal to me, to a degree. I'm only referring to myself, but whilst most of her songs don't appeal to me, I usually find that within the ones that do, it's is in fact Lindsey's contribution that is creating the appeal.

I have the same feelings about some of her songs. For example the long and often-discussed WISYA. I really like the last part when Lindsey sings- the choral like voice makes it for me while the song otherwise drags imo.
Same with WTTRS. Or Smile at you. I heard the demo and fell asleep instantly. And yes I think the grammar thing is tacky... But the sound of Lindseys voice on the album version chorus makes the song for me and that`s what I like it for.
On the other hand there are also some Stevie contributions that improve LB's songs for me. Listen to the different versions of SYHA. The album version with Stevie on background is by far the best. Her inclusion on Say goodbye and the different guitar sound made on the other hand one of my favourite GOS tunes to one of my least favourite SYW ones...

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by stefan

I have the same feelings about some of her songs. For example the long and often-discussed WISYA. I really like the last part when Lindsey sings- the choral like voice makes it for me while the song otherwise drags imo.
Same with WTTRS. Or Smile at you. I heard the demo and fell asleep instantly. And yes I think the grammar thing is tacky... But the sound of Lindseys voice on the album version chorus makes the song for me and that`s what I like it for.
On the other hand there are also some Stevie contributions that improve LB's songs for me. Listen to the different versions of SYHA. The album version with Stevie on background is by far the best. Her inclusion on Say goodbye and the different guitar sound made on the other hand one of my favourite GOS tunes to one of my least favourite SYW ones...

Interestingly, according to Stevie, the idea for LB's haunting vocal at the end of WISYA was all Stevie's. She recorded LB doing it and then took her vocal off of it, leaving only his.

I agree with you, when they are together, the music benefits greatly a la the ones you mentioned - SYHA and the heartwrenching SG (esp. the live versions when they face each other and their voices soar). SHEEBUS

As for the grammar things, they are all "guilty of it." For example,

And once again she steals away
Then she reaches out to kiss me
And how she takes my breath away
Pretending that she don't miss me

LB misses the subject verb agreement in the last line. He purposefully does it for effect and timing in that "doesn't" has too many syllables there. IMO it sounds great. So, I cut them all some slack in the grammar dept -- it is after all rock and roll

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

no they would not You have to write the actual words to get publishing credit, esp. when the words are registered prior to the song's evolution. Plus, I LB gets paid as a producer whose job it is to produce Stevie in this context within FM. Interestingly, Stevie often credits other people in the music credits under the name of each song

See what happens when you throw lawyers into to the mix? [No pun intended.] Jason, from a legal standpoint, you may well be right. I havent' researched it enough, but what you say raises some questions: What about an instrumental? If what you're saying is true, then nobody gets songwriting credit!?!? What about those greedy producers who insist on songwriting credit for changing a couple of words? What about the Lennon-McCartney non-collaboration collaborations? Using a FM example, what about The Chain? I don't think Mick or John came up with any words.

I guess I'm trying to point out that it's not as clear cut as what you say. The songwriting credit usually goes to the person(s) writing the lyrics and melody. That could be one person or several. For the most part, I think we can agree that Stevie comes up with her own melodies, and maybe that's why Lindsey never got songwriting credit. Yet he's come up with all kinds of riffs and things for the songs. But he certainly must have changed some chords here and there, which may or may not have affected melody. For instance, I hear Storms, and I wonder if the chords used in the latter part of the song were in Stevie's original composition or whether Lindsey introduced them. While he didn't get songwriting credit for riffs of chord changes, he gave it to somebody else for coming up with a riff. Interesting, no?

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

We know there's at least ONE song out there that was ALL Stevie and no one else.

With all due respect, that's incorrect. She still had to get people to play the instruments. I'm not dissing it; just setting the record straight.

[earthboundwhite]

It is their's