N.C. Parents Angered by Gay Prince Book

[dissention]

Originally posted by sodascouts
If you're definining sin Biblically, then yes.

And sinning is certainly a lot more fun. If that's what you want, and you don't want to be concerned with sin, then yeah, you've chosen a religion that will suit you. At least during your life.

I'm not sure if it was your intention, but that came off as really rude and inconsiderate remark to people who hold atheist beliefs.

[The Tower]

Originally posted by sodascouts
And frankly, the polygamy argument is already at the bottom of this slippery slope. Four, five consenting adults, right? What's the difference?

There is a BIG difference between polygamy and homosexuality.

Polygamy is more akin to slavery than it is to a consensual relationship between two people. It has been shown that the majority of wives in polygamous situations are not participating voluntarily. Polygamy is a patriarchal situation where the man controls his "harem".

It's tempting to try to demonize homosexuality by comparing it to polygamy, bestiality, etc.... However, it usually doesn't work out logically.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by dissention
I'm not sure if it was your intention, but that came off as really rude and inconsiderate remark to people who hold atheist beliefs.

You're right, that does sounds rude. Sorry, Tower.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by The Tower
There is a BIG difference between polygamy and homosexuality.

Polygamy is more akin to slavery than it is to a consensual relationship between two people. It has been shown that the majority of wives in polygamous situations are not participating voluntarily. Polygamy is a patriarchal situation where the man controls his "harem".

It's tempting to try to demonize homosexuality by comparing it to polygamy, bestiality, etc.... However, it usually doesn't work out logically.

What if all the women ARE participating willingly? Should we not allow them to participate because the institution has been abused by other polygamists? And what about the reverse - if a woman wants more than one husband?

Just playing devil's advocate.

[The Tower]

Originally posted by sodascouts
You're right, that does sounds rude. Sorry, Tower.

Hey Nancy- I didn't think it was rude at all. I think that everyone has the right to practice whatever religion they believe in , even if it's none at all.

I wouldn't want to infringe upon your beliefs- I think your conviction in your faith is admirable.

However, when others try to force their beliefs upon me (or others for that matter), that's when I think it crosses the line. I don't think you've done anything other than expressed your own personal feelings.

I don't even believe in "sin", so I can handle it...

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
I've never heard that about the promise of life eternal, etc.
The Hebrew Bible includes several instructions about spiritual cleansing, including the famous ones for the menstruating woman. In general, blood is to be avoided in Jewish life (i.e., the laws of kashrut/kosher diet). In an historical context, menstrual blood was used by many pagans in fertility practices, such as having the woman actually walk around bleeding on the fields. The early Hebrews set out to make laws to distinguish themselves from the pagans.
The purpose of sex in traditional Judaism does not have to be procreation. Orgasm is supposed to bring you closer to G-d in the literal sense. Just as Christians are instructed to emulate Jesus, Jews are taught to follow the example of G-d, who takes pleasure in creation (and who clothes Adam and Eve, buries Moses, etc.) and who gives humans the ability to enjoy sex for its own sake. Intercourse is not sinful within marriage (Have you seen the bestseller Kosher Sex?) and a husband is commanded to pleasure his wife before himself.
I think that's it in a nutshell, if I remember.

- Jake

Thanks Jake!!!!!!

I am trying to remember what article I read that went into the whole menstrual cyle issue above. If I find, I will post.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Thanks Jake!!!!!!

I am trying to remember what article I read that went into the whole menstrual cyle issue above. If I find, I will post.

There was a website that I found awhile back that talked about that and some other Jewish beliefs; I'll try to find it for you. It was fascinating.

[strandinthewind]

Thanks!!!

Interestingly, Genesis states:

3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
_________________________________________________

Thus, menstuation is a curse on woman for Eve's actions. other parts of the Old Testament state the joy of children outweighs this curse, but it is a curse none the less.

[The Tower]

Originally posted by sodascouts
What if all the women ARE participating willingly? Should we not allow them to participate because the institution has been abused by other polygamists? And what about the reverse - if a woman wants more than one husband?

Just playing devil's advocate.

If society were such that the women in polygamous situations could be trusted to NOT be under duress, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, that has not been shown to be the case.

I think that any time Earth people try polygamy, it's usually within the context of one person of one gender trying to subjugate many of those of the opposite sex. Whenever one tries to subjugate another, I wouldn't consider that "consensual".

Maybe on other worlds out there in the universe there are cultures that can handle polygamy... But the Earth has had a pretty bad track record.

P.S.- I've been gay my whole life, and I've never heard, seen, or encountered a polygamous homosexual situation. I'm not saying it's impossible, however, homosexuality doesn't lend itself very well to gender subjugation (by definition).

[strandinthewind]

Interstingly, I have seen polygamy, if you will, if both hetero and homosexual scenarios and no one felt forced into it, etc., although I am sure that does happen, esp. with women The homosexual scenario is still going on after like seven years. The hetero one did not work out. Granted these people were not married, but they all considered theuir situations legit. Also, the people did not consider their polygamous relationships monogamous (for want of a better word ) They all were with other people outside of the core people. It made it really hard to address the Christmas Cards - so little room on the envelope!

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I think abusing a child is wrong... I think harming an animal is wrong... I think doing something harmful towards anyone is wrong.
If those feelings make me judgemental, then so be it.

But I do not think that expressing love and affection towards someone of the same sex is wrong.
I'm not talking about casual, anonymous sex here... I'm talking about a genuinely loving, caring relationship.

I fully agree. It frustrates me no end to hear people say what gay folks do is wrong. I'm not sure I understand why it's wrong to love.

Are these folks unable to separate the mental picture of the physical act from the idea that same-gender true love is just as valid?

I would have thought "Six Feet Under" would have made poeple more comfortable with the whole thing.

But then again... some of these folks think certain acts between a man and a woman are sinful too. Oh well.

[ryan8472]

Originally posted by dissention
I thought CCD was just story time. And boring at that. I was too worried about getting home in time for Disney Afternoon.

I'm the same way! I'm currently going to classes for my confimation (which I really couldn't care about...it's just another name) I just kind of sit there and nod my head, like I'm paying attention, sometimes injecting my own ideas into the conversation, even though the teacher will pick them apart with some stupid excuse like, "Well, in the bible....".

I'm not against Christians (I was brought up Catholic), and I don't really want to entangle myself in this debate, but I do want to say that gays are still human beings who deserve the same rights everyone else has. A person's sexual preference has nothing to do with their being decent person, and it should be left at that.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by sodascouts
No, because sin does not keep you out of Heaven. if that were the case, there would be ZERO people in Heaven. Not believing Jesus keeps you out of Heaven. So there will be straight non-Christians in hell and Homosexual Christians in Heaven, according to the New Testament, as I said in a previous post.

The Bible does stress conception, but does not prohibit sex within marriage outside of the need to propograte the species! lol

I mean no disrespect by this at all, Nancy... but I think it's terribly narrow-minded to assume that someone not believing in Jesus will preclude them from entering Heaven.

If one believes in a higher power, and one conducts their life as best they can, in order to be more intuned with that higher power... then why isn't it good enough, if that God doesn't happen to be Yahweh, or if they don't happen to believe in Jesus?

I didn't realize that Heaven was a place that only an elite few were allowed to enter, and if we don't all believe the way one religion tells us we should believe, then we're out of luck.

[strandinthewind]

nancy is stating a tenet of the Christian faith. By definition, a Christian has via some ceremony accepted Jesus. Therefore, according to Jesus' own words, all Christians may enter the Kingdon of Heaven. Chrisitans are not alone in this notion of exclusion. Almost all faiths that have a concept of heaven exclude non-believers in that faith from that heaven. Thus, the reason why many people view religion as a form of crowd control - either you listen to the ruling theocracy or you are going to hell (sorry - thought a little levity was needed ). So, I do not think Nancy is saying what any Christian by defninition would also say.

Note: I am not arguing that many people use the threat of not going to heaven to hurt other people a la Pat Robertson and * (better Dissention ). I am just clarifying what Nancy was saying - as if she needs moi to state anything for her

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by ryan8472
I believe that gays are still human beings,

A radical!!!

- Jake