Mick and Stevie RULE!!!

[cliffdweller]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Ah Ha - I have been saying this for years. I think RAL was very different for SN - I think RAL was a conscious effort by her to be experimental and some of the songs reflect that. I think her two self penned TITN songs were experimental as well. Yet, she gets slammed because they are not that great from a commercial point of view

I don't know if commercialism is the issue. RAL is her weakest album because it was just flat uninspired (quickly ducks head for fear of rock throwing). I think Stevie should branch out, just not in that way.

Illume is a great example of Stevie branching outside her tried and true formula and producing amazing music. IMO, she should experiment more in that type of vein.

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by cliffdweller
Spinecringing? Now I know you're serious!!
But let's not be too short-sighted here, there are other band members who have contributed greatly to the success of Fleetwood Mac, or, do you ONLY like Lindsey's stuff? If so, I guess all the other members contributions are moot.

Oh I would NEVER say that the other members didn't contribute greatly. But they obviously make other choices then he does, and even when it looks whiny or hypocrite, his role or extreme pole in the chemistry of the band is important. And here, on the lindsey-side of the ledge we were talking about his behaviour in public, and his artistic story that he keeps repeating. I believe him, because I can hear it in his music. And, yes, he sold out different times, but that is also a part of being in such a band. As long as he is fighting for the artistic, he will keep that band one millimeter away from the danger of trivial music. Stevie is in her soloprojects always searching for a "contrapartner" to keep her away from that: she's also aware of it i think.

That does not mean that stating this I would disrespect the other members.

However, I do believe in his mind, he sold out some of the principles of the kind of music he wanted to make (he's admitted to that). And in the end, it was his decision to stay in the band. Noone was forcing him to remain tethered to Fleetwood Mac, it was always his choice if he wanted to stay or leave.

Yes, i agree on that totally. But with Lindsey coming back to the band they also chose for him to take the artistic lead. And that was his task when mick called him (them) on the edge of 1974/75. Not only for playing guitar but also take the lead in the musical vision: replacing the role of Green and Welch. So it was certainly no pop-band or commercially succesful band at that time.

Yes, to some extend he digged his own pluche grave!! Isn't that great about the story? He still wrestles with that! And for me, he may do that until he finally takes a long rest in it

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Uhm... dude, if the results of the one are good, and he gets praise for it, and the results of the other are not so good, and she gets criticized for it, all is well with the world. Nyet?

Yes, but what I am saying is no one gives her credit for trying to change, grow, etc. They just focus on the "this is horrible" aspect of it

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Jason, are you sure about that? Doesn't she get slammed because the lyrics were subpar in comparison to earlier stuff and because her voice had deteriorated? I'm not trying to slam Stevie here, but I think that saying those of us who slam her for what she created during that time period do so because of any perceived lack of commercialism in the songs is missing the mark.

Ah, but then we come back around to that little matter of taste.

That the lyrics were "subpar" is a matter of opinion. Certainly they weren't the kinds of songs she had written for previous albums, or the kinds of songs people expect from her, but that doesn't mean they have less value. She was writing differently, and while some chide her for that, I praise her for that.

Also, I happen to love the Billie Holiday quality of her voice during that time-period. I loved that vulnerable, world-weary rasp, and I actually really miss it.
I was a new fan during that time-period, and her 'Tango' songs further cemented my love of her music... rather than turning me off. So I wasn't listening and just pretending to like it out of some kind of loyalty, I was listening because I was thoroughly captivated and amazed by the depth of this woman's songs.

So whether one loves them or hates them, the fact of the matter is that she didn't just play it safe, and she didn't just contribute the most commercially-viable material possible.
Leaving the question: Why is it that Lindsey can do something offbeat and wholly artistic (and, therefore, potentially unappealing to the masses), but Stevie's not allowed to, lest she be criticized for not living up to what we expect from her?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Uhm... dude, if the results of the one are good, and he gets praise for it, and the results of the other are not so good, and she gets criticized for it, all is well with the world. Nyet?

Again, that the results are good or aren't good, is just a matter of opinion.

I know die-hard music afficianados, with highbrow tastes, who are completely turned off by Lindsey's stuff.
Their opinion doesn't mean any more or less than our opinions, but certainly in their minds, what Lindsey has done isn't "good," if it doesn't appeal to them.

Even though 'Rock A Little' and 'The Other Side Of The Mirror' weren't as successful as 'Bella Donna' and 'The Wild Heart,' they did both go platinum... so certainly some people felt that they were at least "good."

[cliffdweller]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Why is it that Lindsey can do something offbeat and wholly artistic (and, therefore, potentially unappealing to the masses), but Stevie's not allowed to, lest she be criticized for not living up to what we expect from her?

Well for one thing, I don't think Stevie fans demand (change) of her the way Lindsey fans demand (and expect) it of him. I don't know how pro-experimentation Stevie fans are. I also think, (and this is if she even has the desire to experiment--which I think is up for debate) that Stevie is fearful of fans' reactions to her branching out.

[Johnny Stew]

I should clarify that I'm not meaning to say that record sales are an indicator of whether or not something is of good quality.
I just wanted to point out that, from the fact that these two albums eventually sold a million copies apiece, one could pretty safely assume that their sales figures were not just due to the die-hard fans buying them out of loyalty.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
What exactly makes him a spoiled brat? Is it his zealous protection of the integrity of the music? Is it the fact that he does that while driving a Mercedes?

I agree that he should have given the independent-label idea a try for his solo record, but then we wouldn't be talking about a FM record right now, would we?

we would be talking about a lindsey record, nothing wrong with that.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
There's no need to. Keep the context of my statement in mind. Cliffdweller said Lindsey sold out. That's plain wrong. The band sold out. And the proof is in the songs. None of Lindsey's stuff on Mirage is truly commercial. And on Tango, even Big Love was kind of an aberration on radio at the time. Nothing else really sounded like it.

Lindsey wants a wide audience for his music, it's true. But he wants it on his own terms, not on the terms of what is commercial at that particular time.

It makes perfect sense to me.

i hope he gets that large audience someday, but after all these years of what hes doing (solo, i mean ) just how does he expect to reach a large audience , if he doesnt want commercial songs, or even a commercial single, how does he ever expect to reach all these people. so even if say you will never happened and he did release this material as a solo. just how would he grab a bigger listening group? even if he had the best cd ever of the most artistic music , you still have to make the people want to buy it and hear it. its not going to happen just because he wants it too, or i t would of happened for him already. i wished it happened with ootc, even tho he did a club tour and got out there, it still didnt achieve what i wished it had for him.. i will admit tho, after this syw tour i think if he does release a new solo. i think maybe more ppl will be interested in him, but again , thats because of major exposer with fleetwood mac on tour, because fm reaches a much larger audience. i think before fm records again, linds should do a new solo first. even tho i know it takes him so long to do so, im sure a fm cd wil be born first. lets hope and see.

[teedee]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I do understand what you're saying, but I still don't think it's an entirely accurate assessment, because FM doesn't really go by what's commercial at any given time either.

I'll remove 'Mirage' and 'Tango' from the equation, because of Lindsey's involvement... but look at 'Behind The Mask' and 'Time.'
Granted, I know you have no love lost for either of those albums, but neither of them sound exactly like the kind of music that was selling the most albums in 1990 and 1995.

Certainly they weren't entirely out of touch with the time period (Lindsey's solo stuff never is, either), but they weren't duplicates of the Top 40, top-selling music that was out then either.

By the way, if you want to look at the term "selling out" in the strictest of terms, then it really isn't entirely unreasonable to say Lindsey sold out.
If he's absolutely, fundamentally against doing something, but then gives in to sell more albums, he has sold himself out.
The documentary clearly showed us that he was against releasing 'Say You Will' as a single album, but then feared it wouldn't sell enough for him to recoup his investment... so, he made the decision to release it as a single. Therefore he gave-in to sell more albums.
Which, if one chooses to look at it honestly, is "selling out."

I reiterate, I have no problem with Lindsey or anyone else in the band, wanting to sell as many copies of their albums as possible... but, again, it's exhibiting a bit of tunnel vision to claim Lindsey is above doing something to sell more albums. Even when it means compromising his original artistic vision.

Well Said.

[teedee]

Originally posted by CarneVaca

Fleetwood Mac sold out. Lindsey didn't. The proof is in the songs.

your words!

[Les]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Now, I'm not trying to paint her as a martyr, because certainly she stands to make a lot of money if an album does well... but I just want to point out that, as she expressed them in the documentary, her feelings on why a double-album might not have been the best idea, weren't entirely self-serving either.

Oh, JS, I've got some land in Florida...

Just off work and off to find the reissues! Woohoo!

[teedee]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Also, do y'all think LB was talking about the number of songs or the production of the songs. I mean there really was no change other than the addition of La Nicks' vocals in the production of the final product from the original GOS stuff. So, no one really foreced him to comply with a more mainstream musical effort in that aspect, with the possible exception of the lyric change in Peacekeeper, which he said he did not mind. I wonder if LB views the "commercial" aspect he was talking about as just picking the more mainstream stuff from his GOS material?

He kind of goes into this when he says "I own the masters," etc. I guess he wanted to release almost his entire GOS body of work in a FM record so that it reached the widest possible audience.

exactly, he used the fleetwood mac avenue to have his songs reach a wider audience. which is fine with me.
so to say he wants to reach a wider audience but on his own terms, thats fine if its a solo cd and your record company backs you. but when you have 3 other artists in a "group" situation its still a group effort with input from the others , whether they are discussing double cds, or what ever. I dont think they were being stubborn for not agreeing with him at all.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Les
Oh, JS, I've got some land in Florida...

Just off work and off to find the reissues! Woohoo!

Here we go again, when LB wants to have a double record he is 100% correct. Yet, when Stevie who for all we know also wanted a double record sees the handwriting on the wall and decides to temper action with wisdom, she is not to be believed - your bias is showing

[Les]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Here we go again, when LB wants to have a double record he is 100% correct. Yet, when Stevie who for all we know also wanted a double record sees the handwriting on the wall and decides to temper action with wisdom, she is not to be believed - your bias is showing

Huh? Nowhere in my discussion of any of this do I say Lindsey is 100% correct for anything. He had a point of view. He argued for it. She had hers, and she argued for it. However, I don't find the "supporting the family" argument any more convincing from her than I do anyone else. It was a rationalization from each of them when trying to deal with not quite getting what they really wanted.

I was teasing JS. That's all.