Tusk tour - backing players.

[face of glass]

I guess it's my lack of knowledge again but I wasn't really aware of other backing players on the Tusk tour besides Ray Lindsey until I read Bob Brunning's book:

"Messrs Fleetwood, Buckingham, Nicks and the McVies, joined by Ray Lindsey (guitar), Tony Todaro (percussion) and Jeffrey Sova (keyboards) all doubling as road crew members, rehearsed for six weeks in September 1979."

Which songs did Todaro and Sova appear on then?

[David]

Originally posted by face of glass
I guess it's my lack of knowledge again but I wasn't really aware of other backing players on the Tusk tour besides Ray Lindsey until I read Bob Brunning's book:

"Messrs Fleetwood, Buckingham, Nicks and the McVies, joined by Ray Lindsey (guitar), Tony Todaro (percussion) and Jeffrey Sova (keyboards) all doubling as road crew members, rehearsed for six weeks in September 1979."

Which songs did Todaro and Sova appear on then?

They didn't do much as backup players. Todaro played drums on "Tusk" on his own kit set up behind Mick. I haven't seen the doc from St. Louis in a long time & I can't remember whether you can see Todaro playing on the video. You can see both kits in some of the pics I took of the Hollywood Bowl & Cow Palace shows, but Todaro's kit was behind a cloth backdrop of some sort that was weirdly lighted from behind. Sova stayed offstage & played an Oberheim on "Tusk." He probably played a synth on "Tusk" on the Mirage Tour, too, & he definitely played a pad of some sort on "Hold Me," which provided a nice, but rather faint bedrock for Christine's acoustic grand piano on that number. Contrary to widespread opinion, he did NOT regularly play a clavinet on "You Make Loving Fun" on any Fleetwood Mac tour, but Brett did starting in '97. (Interestingly, Garfield did not add a clavinet voice to the song on the tours he did.)

Apparently, one of the rags out there says Fleetwood had worked up some sort of arrangement with "Not That Funny" for the Tusk Tour that featured Sova on synth, but that idea was canned before the tour started. We have a couple of "Not That Funny" recordings from various 1979 rehearsals, but none of them features Sova on synth.

Keep in mind that when they talk about backup musicians on these old tours, it's a LOT different from the way the backups are used nowadays. On the reunion tour & this tour (as well as the two tours with Vito & Burnette), the backups were onstage playing on virtually every number. This simply wasn't the case on the late '70s or early '80s tours. There were select numbers that the backup guys played, but most of the concert was just the four musicians, which is precisely what gave the live sound such an empty quality to many listeners. A lot of fans just do not like the sound of the band on those older tours.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by David
There were select numbers that the backup guys played, but most of the concert was just the four musicians, which is precisely what gave the live sound such an empty quality to many listeners. A lot of fans just do not like the sound of the band on those older tours.

I'm not one of them. I love the older tour sounds. I love the new stuff too, obviously.. but it's cool to hear them really raw.

Originally posted by David
They didn't do much as backup players. Todaro played drums on "Tusk" on his own kit set up behind Mick. I haven't seen the doc from St. Louis in a long time & I can't remember whether you can see Todaro playing on the video.

You can't see him. Thanks for the info David...I had seen the various backup players in the liner notes for the 1980 "live" album but couldn't figure out what songs they played on.


A lot of fans just do not like the sound of the band on those older tours.

i'm not one of them. I'm one of the few that actually prefers just hearing the four of them play. Actually, now it would be just a trio.
I personally think less is more.

I don't want to start bashing but i find it quite disappointing that at times it's hard to pick out who's playing what. And i'm not even going to mention the vocals...I was just listening to a song from the Dance tour (can't remember it right now...damn....don't get old) and i couldn't even hear Stevie....oh wait, yes, it was the medley from the Grammy's that someone currently has posted. Anyway, during "go your own way" i can't hear Stevie at all on the harmony. I hear Lindsey doing the lower and Christine doing the middle....but i can't hear the high part. Obviously, it's one of the girls. And Stevie's probably blending in with Christine on the middle part. But even then, it's pretty low.

I always felt that the strong part of that harmony was the high part. It really gave the chorus some fierce energy. When they started doing it live, first Lindsey did it and then, at some point during the Rumours tour, Stevie did the honors. And she continued doing it through the Tusk tour. Then in Mirage, Lindsey went back to the high part.

Anyway, sorry to go off on a tangent...the favorite part of the current tour for me is when they do the softer set with Mick on the smaller kit in front. There's less backing at that point. Even then, i miss Christine on piano during Beautiful Child. Damn her and her retirement!

[SteveMacD]

OTOH, it's not like having extra musicians throughout the set was entirely new for the Mac in 1987. They had Nigel Watson on percussion in 1971 and Bobby Hunt, followed by Doug Graves, on additional keyboards in 1974.

Personally, my favorite BN-era boots are from the 1975-1976 shows. They had a raw energy that lacks, IMO, on any tour thereafter, regardless of line-up.

[macfan 57]

Originally posted by David
A lot of fans just do not like the sound of the band on those older tours.

Not me either. My favorite shows were just the 4 of them, especially the White Album tour. As far as I know, there was no one playing on any song except for the 4 of them during that tour. They also had the best set list on that tour, too. But, the Rumours, Tusk & Mirage tours were OK, too. The extra musicians were not a distraction in any way, in my opinion. It wasn't until the Tango, BTM & Dance tours that it got to be too much. If you listen to bootleg recordings from those tours, it's hard to tell who is playing & singing on each song. I liked the simplicity from the 1970's best.

I LOVE the Welch shows from 1974 that I've heard, even though there is an extra keyboard player. In my opinion, the organ & synthesizer from Bobby Hunt & Doug Graves blended very nicely with Christine's piano. I think it enhanced their overall sound.

[David]

Originally posted by joe
I don't want to start bashing but i find it quite disappointing that at times it's hard to pick out who's playing what.

I have a cool little portable MP3 player (the MuVo X-Trainer, which I recommend) that I can load up with MP3s. So the other day, I loaded "Angel" & "Monday Morning" from the August 1980 Birmingham show, followed by the radio broadcast of the July 2003 show in Anaheim, & headed to the gym. The unfortunate differences are all the more apparent when you listen to the two eras back to back. The 1980 performances had so much beautiful, energetic space in them -- they were so propulsive & wiry & really got you pumped. There was a marvelous throwaway quality about them (the way an experienced actor casually tosses off a line so that it sounds inspired & natural instead of forced). Each instrument -- Lindsey's Turner, John's bass, Mick's drums & Christine's Yamaha -- is allowed to ebb & flow, increase in intensity & volume & then decrease, winding its sinewy way through the performance & gathering in momentum & then finally exploding & once again subsiding. Listening to them play in those days was like listening to a thunderstorm crackle, boom & then slowly grow faint.

Then I listened to the Anaheim show from last year, & was so disheartened to hear a sonic wall of sludge. There literally was not a hole that hadn't been filled by one of the umpteen musicians in the band, not a single space left untouched, not a single respite from the omnipresent noise. I argued with a friend of mine over the differences, a newspaper editor, & he maintained that it's just a matter of taste: my taste vs. someone else's taste. I told him, "No ... good taste vs. bad."

All the Mac members from that era were beautifully idiosyncratic players above all else; Fleetwood drummed like no one else, Buckingham played guitar like no one else, McVie played keyboards like no one else. Each player was heterodox & lacking in technique, but somehow that combined into a potent brew. You want to hear those idiosyncracies, damnit -- otherwise, why bother? They bury their natural live sound under so much flotsam & jetsam, & poof goes the charm & the weirdness, all those highly individual, sometimes dorky styles of playing that separated them from the pack (*cough* Eagles *cough*).

[face of glass]

Whatever one might say about the staticness of the setlists on the Tusk and Mirage tours, the early live versions of "Rhiannon", the spontaneity of the speeches between 1975-78 and the good number of pre-BN line-up songs they played, they were still the peak of their live playing between 1979-82 IMO.

Lindsey and Stevie didn't really sound convincing with the material of early FM, except for a few isolated spots. Even on Rumours tour the band tried to act as one big happy family on stage throughout.

With the Tusk tour "I'm So Afraid" had gained a truly depressing quality, "Go Your Own Way" could crackle with feedback, "Not That Funny" had a cat playing the fiddle and a cow jumping over the moon and overall there was just a lot more daring, bravado and youthful swagger. Perhaps it was the tensions inside the line-up. The Mirage tour was essentially a smaller scale version of that.

Originally posted by David
They bury their natural live sound under so much flotsam & jetsam, & poof goes the charm & the weirdness, all those highly individual, sometimes dorky styles of playing that separated them from the pack (*cough* Eagles *cough*).

I agree with pretty much everything in your post David. The only way they could really try to cover up the sterility of their current (floor)show would be by trying to change the setlist. I can forgive them for not doing so constantly during the Tusk and Mirage tours because even then the playing had the proverbial "balls" that Lindsey spoke about. They're too satisfied with what they have right now, it seems.

[chiliD]

Originally posted by face of glass
Whatever one might say about the staticness of the setlists on the Tusk and Mirage tours, the early live versions of "Rhiannon", the spontaneity of the speeches between 1975-78 and the good number of pre-BN line-up songs they played, they were still the peak of their live playing between 1979-82 IMO.

1979, yes...1982, no

Originally posted by face of glass
Lindsey and Stevie didn't really sound convincing with the material of early FM, except for a few isolated spots.

I thought that "Oh Well" was the only tune that didn't come off well. "Green Manalishi", "Station Man", "Tell Me All The Things You Do", "Sunny Side Of Heaven", etc...all were great.

[HomerMcvie]

There were select numbers that the backup guys played, but most of the concert was just the four musicians, which is precisely what gave the live sound such an empty quality to many listeners. A lot of fans just do not like the sound of the band on those older tours.

WHO decided that all bands could no longer go out as a four piece? I wanna know who is responsible, so I can go kick their collective arse!
All of the intimacy is gone. It's like being bludgeoned with a sonic hammer now. Hey Mick, you could pocket more money if you'd leave the unnecessary musicians at home!

[jbrownsjr]

David,

I agree with your post 100%. I love hearing just the 4 instrumentalists with Stevie doing various percussion. I also love when they do their own harmonies leaving the sound a little more raw.

One thing that bothered me as the sound got mushier and heavier was that Christine's keyboards get lost in the mix. And she is a very unique keyboard player. Her arrangements and rhythms of the way she presents a chord is amazing. Try playing some of her songs on the piano. I try to play Brown Eyes or Songbird quite often I crash and burn because her rhythm is quirky. It's difficult stuff to play.

[face of glass]

Originally posted by chiliD
1979, yes...1982, no

Well yeah, I can understand that. The whole short trek across the States in 1982 wasn't really anything but a smaller rehash of the previous mammoth one. Obviously the players weren't that much into it. The setlist was almost the same, they just threw out some of the Tusk songs and put the obligatory Mirage ones in.

It doesn't bother me to hear more of the same, though. And it ain't that easy to say which performances are more involved than the others when they don't differ in arrangements.

Then again, you said that "I'm So Afraid" was at its best during the Mirage tour, not the Tusk one. Now where's the significant improvement? That little creepy riff Lindsey plays after the cut-out opening improvisation in the Mirage tour video?

I thought that "Oh Well" was the only tune that didn't come off well. "Green Manalishi", "Station Man", "Tell Me All The Things You Do", "Sunny Side Of Heaven", etc...all were great.

Lindsey's "Hypnotized" isn't half bad, but I think Bob Welch did "The Green Manalishi" better, for instance. And I like those Nicksian wails, although I've heard you don't share that approval.

And "Station Man" has always rubbed me the wrong way. Nothing could really save this one.

I guess you'll never forgive Lindsey for his sloppy riffage in the early BN line-up "Oh Wells". Guitar virtuoso!

[chiliD]

Originally posted by face of glass
Lindsey's "Hypnotized" isn't half bad, but I think Bob Welch did "The Green Manalishi" better, for instance. And I like those Nicksian wails, although I've heard you don't share that approval.

Where the f*** did you get that idea about my view of Stevie & "Green Manalishi"? I certainly have never said anything about it to the negative side on this tune. And, if you listen to the original, Stevie took her wails from Peter.

Lindsey did "Hypnotized" a LOT better than what he admitted his off-stage attitude toward the song was.

Originally posted by face of glass
And "Station Man" has always rubbed me the wrong way. Nothing could really save this one.

Your loss.

Originally posted by face of glass
I guess you'll never forgive Lindsey for his sloppy riffage in the early BN line-up "Oh Wells". Guitar virtuoso!

I won't forgive him for the ones throughout 1979/80 & 1982 as well. It just wasn't "his" song. Although with his current "let's drag out all the guitar pyrotechnics from the gutter" attitude, NOW is the time he should be playing it.

[face of glass]

Originally posted by chiliD
Where the f*** did you get that idea about my view of Stevie & "Green Manalishi"? I certainly have never said anything about it to the negative side on this tune. And, if you listen to the original, Stevie took her wails from Peter.

It's just something I've seen Darklinensuit hinting at, but obviously I read it wrong.

Lindsey did "Hypnotized" a LOT better than what he admitted his off-stage attitude toward the song was.

Yeah, I guess the whole "I hated doing Bob Welch's songs" attitude in Bob Brunning's book is a bit exaggerated.

Your loss.

As is yours with "When You Say".

I won't forgive him for the ones throughout 1979/80 & 1982 as well. It just wasn't "his" song. Although with his current "let's drag out all the guitar pyrotechnics from the gutter" attitude, NOW is the time he should be playing it.

I still don't think it was any weaker than the other live versions, except for the opening riffage which he did improve upon (but never played it as fluently as Billy & Rick, for instance) when he got his Turner. Those instrumental sections get me going any time, no matter who's playing them.

Who knows, maybe Peter Green should try one of those songs that are Lindsey only in the studio (as we know of "Oh Well", it's all PG except for the recorder solo). Then we'd see if those are up his alley.

Every line-up so far has delivered great versions of "Oh Well" (ok, I haven't heard any live recording from 1994-95).

Consequently, I think Billy and Rick sounded like that aforementioned "lounge act" with the BN line-up songs live. "Don't Let Me Down Again" seems to be an exception. (Note: it could be spoken of as a Fleetwood Mac song because of its appearance on the 1980 live album and because only the hardcores have the Buckingham Nicks LP).

[Johnny Stew]

I think having a fuller band benefits some songs, and is a detriment to others.

The somewhat sloppy, but oh-so-enthusiastic White Album tour versions of "Rhiannon" and "I'm So Afraid" can never be improved upon, IMO.
The funky early performances of "You Make Loving Fun" were always best, and "The Chain" definitely sounded better with more sonic space.

But I think other songs like "Gypsy" and "Over My Head" really come into their own on stage, when there are more musicians to help flesh them out (Still, I'd prefer it if they did "Gypsy" acoustically these days).