The album that could have been...

[Johnny Stew]

If we think Fleetwood Mac is bad when it comes to making decisions, it's a good thing they've never asked us Ledgies to put together an album for them!
We can't agree on anything!
"Leave that song off, and add this one!" "No, no, no... that song sucks! Add this one instead!"

Personally, I like 'Say You Will' with the songs that are already on it, and I wouldn't remove anything or add songs from other albums.
I also disagree that it sounds like "solo albums slapped together"... after all, that criticism has been leveled at the band since 'Tusk' was released.

Stevie & Lindsey (and Christine) have such distinct writing styles, that there's just no way around that... although I definitely feel that the running orders often make the difference even more pronounced.

So, the only thing I'd do (and have done), is change the running order of 'Say You Will'....[list=1][*]What's The World Coming To[*]Say You Will[*]Bleed To Love Her[*]Thrown Down[*]Peacekeeper[*]Smile At You[*]Murrow[*]Illume[*]Say Goodbye[*]Running Through The Garden[*]Miranda[*]Everybody Finds Out[*]Steal Your Heart Away[*]Silver Girl[*]Come[*]Destiny Rules[*]Red Rover[*]Goodbye Baby[/list=1]And when I listen to it on my computer... since I'm not limited to keeping it under 80 minutes... I add "Not Make Believe" and "Love Minus Zero/No Limit" from the bonus disc:[list=1][*]What's The World Coming To[*]Say You Will[*]Bleed To Love Her[*]Not Make Believe[*]Peacekeeper[*]Smile At You[*]Murrow[*]Illume[*]Say Goodbye[*]Running Through The Garden[*]Love Minus Zero/No Limit[*]Everybody Finds Out[*]Steal Your Heart Away[*]Silver Girl[*]Come[*]Thrown Down[*]Miranda[*]Destiny Rules[*]Red Rover[*]Goodbye Baby[/list=1]

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I also disagree that it sounds like "solo albums slapped together"... after all, that criticism has been leveled at the band since 'Tusk' was released.

I think it is fair to say that about Tusk, but somehow it works, much like it does in the Beatles' White Album. I don't think it applies to Mirage and Tango, though. Both those albums have a "sound," especially Tango. Say You Will lacks a cohesive sound. But it's not because of the "two solo albums" reason. To me, the sound differs not by artist necessarily, but rather by the time at which the song was written or produced. If you put Steal Your Heart Away, Bleed to Love Her, Down on Rodeo, Gotta Get Away, The Singer Not the Song and Twist of Fate together, you have a cohesive sound. Then you could throw in Say Goodbye, Red Rover, What's The World Coming too, and even Love Minus Zero/No Limit, withouth upsetting that cohesion of sound.

Then you have things like Shuffle Riff, Gift of Screws, Deep Dense, etc., that could belong in a different album altogether.

And that's just Lindsey's songs. The same goes for Stevie. Running through the Garden and Silver Girl don't fit with things like Smile at You, Goodbye Baby and Illume. But that's a production issue, considering they were all produced within the same 18-month period.

I understand and respect what Lindsey tried to do with the track list. It just didn't work too well for me.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I think it is fair to say that about Tusk, but somehow it works, much like it does in the Beatles' White Album. I don't think it applies to Mirage and Tango, though. Both those albums have a "sound," especially Tango. Say You Will lacks a cohesive sound. But it's not because of the "two solo albums" reason. To me, the sound differs not by artist necessarily, but rather by the time at which the song was written or produced.

It applies to 'Mirage' and 'Tango' in a less pronounced way than it does to 'Tusk,' I think.

For example, on 'Mirage,' Lindsey's 1950s-sounding songs like "Oh Diane" and "Can't Go Back" don't necessarily sound like they fit next to "Gypsy" or "Hold Me.

And Stevie's "When I See You Again" and "Welcome To The Room... Sara" on 'Tango' seem a little too dark to fit next to perkier fare like "Family Man" and "You And I, part 2."

But I do agree with you that, on the whole, those two albums sound more cohesive than 'Tusk.'

Oddly enough though, even though some of the 'SYW' songs sound different production-wise, I really think it works to great effect there. I've actually thought that 'Say You Will' sounds like a marriage between 'Tusk' and 'Tango,' with a brand new sensibility added to the mix.

There's a great amount of variety in the sound of the album, in my opinion... although, I also think the track-listing could have been more complimentary to the individual songs, and therefore, to the album as a whole.

[joe68]

I remember hearing PK before SYW came out and thinking, cool. Then SYW, Destiny Rules and WTWCT and still thinking, great!

The the crap hit the fan with Smile At You. I had such high hopes for this song. I know I've heard it a 1000 times as a demo, but even without comparing it with all those demos, there is no way I would have liked the SYW version of this song.

Shortly after I bought the whole record, and then came the skipping songs, the thinking 'I waited 16 years for that?!' , etc.
I'm the biggest Stevie fan around and I can find something to like about everything she records, but EFO? Are you kidding me? RTTG was such a good demo, until they used the same cheesy guitar riff. No song is special here. No one song blows me away. Even the good songs could have been better:

Get rid of all the repetitive chorus' on SYW
Get rid of Lindsey's over dubbed voice on Illume
Get rid of Stevie's flat vocal on Destiny Rules
Get rid of the jewelry box sound on Goodbye Baby
Get rid of Silver girl (period)!

I find it hard to believe anyone would rate this album as a fav FL album. Even without Chrisitne theres no reason this record should have sounded so joyless and flat. Theres a reason I'm still listening to my 3 yr old copy of TISL!!! Theres a reason TISL has sold just about as many copies as SYW.

[CarneVaca]

Achally, I forgot all about Everybody Finds Out. I would put that in my earlier two-disc version as well.

Johnny, I see what you're saying about the 1950s-like sound of Lindsey's songs in Mirage. Somehow, to my ear it still fits. The instrumentation and effects from one song to the next seem fairly consistent. For instance, the vibraphone (or whatever it was) that Lindsey uses on Empire State and the cello-like guitar effects on Hold Me and the chimey guitar riffs on Gypsy somehow blend together at some cosmic level. Even the country flavor of That's Alright, with what sounds like is a banjo, fits. It all works somehow to create a sound.

In Tango, the sound is even more cohesive. When you refer to the darkness of Stevie's songs, I think that's more about message than the sound. From song to song, the sound is very consistent. I was referring to the production/engineering aspect.

Say You Will, though I like most of it very much, has uneven sound. At least to my ear.

[markolas]

Originally posted by trackaghost
I must be weird because I like every single song on Say You Will including Silver Girl (and Red Rover for that matter).
I also consider it the band's best album since Tusk.
But that's just me. I wouldn't want them to change it at all.

That's how I feel, too.

I've heard people call SYW "self-indulgent" (I've heard them say that about Tusk, too...and practically all of Joni Mitchell's albums after Court and Spark...to me, most of her best stuff was after Court and Spark...maybe I'm "self-indulgent," too), and complain about Christine's absence, the fact that it's too long, and it doesn't sound like Rumours. All of those things are big pluses to me...so, I suppose I'm weird, too

[Merf]

I think Say You Will is a magnificent album,but if I had to "trim" a few, mine would look like this:


What's the World Coming To?
Illume
Thrown Down
Miranda
Red Rover
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Come
Smile At You
Steal Your Heart Away
Everybody Finds Out
Destiny Rules
Say Goodbye

I eliminated Goodbye Baby, Running Through the Garden, Silver Girl, Bleed to Love Her, and Murrow (because I Had to get rid of another Lindsey song and that is my least fave of the ones left).
This track order would have never happened because it is uneven (Lindsey-7, Stevie-6) but oh well.

[Cristian]

I wanted to copy Say You Will to a tape source so that I can listen to it in my very old walkman. So what I did was trim down my four least favorite tunes and re-arrange the track order. I ended up with quite an enjoyable selection.

I erased Lindsey's "Come" (live version kicks ass; studio version is... very irritant to my ears) and "Murrow" (just blah); and Stevie's "Illume" (good intentions, perhaps good lyrics, but I can't stand the singing) and "Silver Girl" (her worst Fleetwood Mac song in my opinion).

The tracklist is as follows:

Side A
1. Bleed To Love Her
2. Thrown Down
3. Peacekeeper
4. What's The World Coming To
5. Smile At You
6. Red Rover
7. Running Through The Garden

Side B
1. Destiny Rules
2. Miranda
3. Say You Will
4. Steal Your Heart Away
5. Everybody Finds Out
6. Goodbye Baby
7. Say Goodbye


And I found out that

• I love "Bleed To Love Her" as an opener although I like the Dance version much better;
• I like the way the two Lindsey "politic" songs ("Peacekeeper" and "What's The World") sound together; they sort of give eachother strength;
• The abrupt ending of "Red Rover" flows in perfectly with the soft beginning of "Running Through The Garden";
• "Destiny Rules" should have been earlier on the album;
• I put the two 'Christine-like' tracks together ("Say You Will" and "Steal Your Heart Away") and it sounds great!
• The ending sounds better if you swap the last two songs... but I guess that's very deabatable, too.

It was a fun exercise nonetheless.



Song of the moment - Book Of Miracles

[blinker12]

Sometimes I don't understand my fellow fans. If you call these tunes "not belonging"on a FM-album and self-indulged
( somebody explain to me : what the h*ll is that!!!!), then what is the titletrack of Tango in the night doing there?

Fair enough question; "self-indulgent" is a vague term and I should have explained better what I meant. Of course ALL the following is just my opinion, but...
I think Stevie "indulges herself" mostly in her lyrics. Obscure third person references, personal anecdotes that don't mean anything to anyone else, etc. Prime example is "Silver Girl" (with its "papers she never signed" and so on).
Lindsey, meanwhile, indulges himself mostly through his production techniques and his guitar playing _ I resisted using the term "wankery" . I mean, the man is a god, don't get me wrong, but do all those fireworks on "Murrow" and "Come" really serve the songs? Live, sure. But not needed on record I'd say. Likewise, "Smile at You" is too souped-up for me, though I like the song itself.

One of the best traits of past Mac albums has been Stevie and Lindsey's ability to check each others' self-indulgence. IMO, that didn't happen so much on "Say You Will."

Let me just say for the record, though, that I'm grateful for the album and thoroughly enjoy most of it.

[DownOnRodeo]

Christian! Even without listening to it, I can see that your tracklisting would work great! If I had to cut out four I guess this would be my SYW:


1. Murrow Turning Over in His Grave
2. Thrown Down
3. Peacekeeper
4. What's The World Coming To
5. Illume
6. Red Rover
7. Running Through The Garden
8. Destiny Rules
9. Miranda
10. Say You Will
11. Come
12. Everybody Finds Out
13. Goodbye Baby
14. Say Goodbye

Frankly this whole thread confirms my feelings that the recently touted future of digitally released single songs without physical albums is the way to go. That way the band releases a slew of songs that fall under the 'Say You Will' label, and the fans just buy the ones they want, or indeed all fo them, but choose the ones they want to turn into a CD. And you could purchase online a package to be mailed to you which has the CD packaging and a couple of blank CD-Rs with the CD art pre-printed onto them. Then we burn our custom CDs.

Anything's possible.

back in 1990 when Lindsey was already out of the band. Stevie and Christine announced in mid tour that they were leaving the band. For about six years after that, there was no FM anymore in my opinion, with no disrespect to the Time lineup. A friend of mine dragged me to a Time concert and i've never been more disappointed. It wasn't because the actual band was bad, but because the front people-Christine, Lindsey and Stevie-were gone and they were the main reason that i liked the band. Mick and John are one of the best rhythm sections, but i could care less about the rest of the band if there isn't at least one of the Rumours members present.

So, this brings me to my point....I, too, tend to get critical of them. And i have been critical of Say You Will. Yes, the album does lack a certain cohesiveness....I think maybe it is too long. I have certain songs that don't have the FM sound to me and i skip over them. But anyway, i now try to just appreciate each song individually of the others. I really don't listen to the whole cd all the way through anymore...i never really did. I tend to skip around and that works better for me.

There are certain groups of songs that work for me. In my opinion, i think songs like "Murrow", "Everybody Finds Out", and "Say Goodbye" really stand out. I think they are really strong and fresh tunes. I really don't know why they chose to omit the first two from their tour setlist.

Anyway, the songs to me that work best for this record in terms of the overall sound is....drum roll please....and this is the order that i think i would listen to it in:

Murrow
Thrown Down
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Miranda
Not Make Believe
What's the World Coming To
Steal Your Heart Away
Silver Girl
Bleed To Love Her
Destiny Rules
Say Goodbye


Finally, it's not that i don't like the ones that i omitted, it's just that i would rather hear them on solo albums.

Originally posted by joe
There are certain groups of songs that work for me. In my opinion, i think songs like "Murrow", "Everybody Finds Out", and "Say Goodbye" really stand out. I think they are really strong and fresh tunes. I really don't know why they chose to omit the first two from their tour setlist.

Anyway, the songs to me that work best for this record in terms of the overall sound is....drum roll please....and this is the order that i think i would listen to it in:

Murrow
Thrown Down
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Miranda
Not Make Believe
What's the World Coming To
Steal Your Heart Away
Silver Girl
Bleed To Love Her
Destiny Rules
Say Goodbye

I have to clarify something here after re-reading my post. I mentioned "Everybody Finds Out" as being a stand out track....However, i did not include it in my track list....This is because although i think it's a good song, i don't like thinking of it as a FM song, and therefore, being on the album. Same with some of the others i left off...This brings me back to my additional idea of liking the songs but not as though they were FM songs.

Am i making sense, or being redundant?

How about both? I'm making sense AND being redundant about it....

How about neither:
I'm NOT making sense AND i'm being redundant about it.

Maybe i'm just crazy today!

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by blinker12
Fair enough question; "self-indulgent" is a vague term and I should have explained better what I meant. Of course ALL the following is just my opinion, but...
I think Stevie "indulges herself" mostly in her lyrics. Obscure third person references, personal anecdotes that don't mean anything to anyone else, etc. Prime example is "Silver Girl" (with its "papers she never signed" and so on).
Lindsey, meanwhile, indulges himself mostly through his production techniques and his guitar playing _ I resisted using the term "wankery" . I mean, the man is a god, don't get me wrong, but do all those fireworks on "Murrow" and "Come" really serve the songs? Live, sure. But not needed on record I'd say. Likewise, "Smile at You" is too souped-up for me, though I like the song itself.

One of the best traits of past Mac albums has been Stevie and Lindsey's ability to check each others' self-indulgence. IMO, that didn't happen so much on "Say You Will."

Let me just say for the record, though, that I'm grateful for the album and thoroughly enjoy most of it.

Okay, that's clear. But now I know that what you call selfindulgent I call quality and character. Oh, I don't like Silver Girl either, but not because of selfindulgent lyrics, it's just not that strong melody. Stevie usually does better.

gerald

[chiliD]

Originally posted by blinker12
...but do all those fireworks on "Murrow" and "Come" really serve the songs? Live, sure. But not needed on record I'd say.

Repectfully disagree. (only because I have to...otherwise I'd question your sanity! )

Then Cream & Led Zeppelin never should've gone in the studio, by your logic, right?

Manic guitar solos are what the foundation of Rock was made from. Take that away from "the record" and you have "EASY LISTENING".

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by joe
Yes, the album does lack a certain cohesiveness....I think maybe it is too long.

It still puzzles me.
This album is too short!
Just a few weeks before release they had to cut 5 songs and put it all on one disc. The frickin' constructive idea behind this record, how it grew through time, was brutally ruined! And then we have the finishing of the record and the friction about the running order through telephone! So cohesiveness: I am sure that cut in two pieces and 5 songs added, there would have been more cohesiveness. And on a double-album, nobody would have talked about a record that was too long, I think.

So that's my critic towards the band: They did not fight against WB enough, like in the old Tusk-days. But then again, they had a somewhat stronger position back then....

gerald