Joan of Arc

[paleshadow]

Originally posted by DownOnRodeo
Thanks for posting those lyrics Paleshadow; I thought it was 'There's a few murders in a century, they take limousines', and unsurprisingly this made no sense to me. But now it does :P

That's OK. I'm sure they are posted other places as well. I was just getting confused as to which version was which. I wish I could edit out the limousine line.

Doug

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by paleshadow
That's OK. I'm sure they are posted other places as well. I was just getting confused as to which version was which. I wish I could edit out the limousine line.

Doug

Actually the limo line helps me understand what she's trying to say. I think, anyway. Who knows with her.

- Jake

[dissention]

I think the whole "martyrs/limousine" verse is laughable, but that's just me. Martyrs taking limousines? Stevie is out there, but this just confirms it.

[darklinensuit]

I don't think it's any more laughable than the story in Mick's book of Stevie saying she knew how Marilyn must have felt. Certainly Marilyn had it all in some ways, but many people today see her as a martyr to the demands of Hollywood, fame, and love.

- Jake

[dissention]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
I don't think it's any more laughable than the story in Mick's book of Stevie saying she knew how Marilyn must have felt. Certainly Marilyn had it all in some ways, but many people today see her as a martyr to the demands of Hollywood, fame, and love.

- Jake

Well, Marilyn was quite different than most movie stars, both in the way she lived and the life she led. I think it's ridiculous notion for Stevie to say she knew how Marilyn must've felt; Marilyn was quite the fragile woman-child whose problems traced back to before she even set foot in Hollywood. I don't see Marilyn as a martyr whatsoever, but whatever floats others' boats.

Did you ever "Blonde" by Joyce Carol Oates? Not historically accurate, but a fantastic read about Marilyn.

[chiliD]

Personally, I like the Jeremy Spencer song with the same title on his Jeremy Spencer & the Children LP quite a bit better. I could hear Stevie doing lead vocals on THAT track.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Well, Marilyn was quite different than most movie stars, both in the way she lived and the life she led. I think it's ridiculous notion for Stevie to say she knew how Marilyn must've felt; Marilyn was quite the fragile woman-child whose problems traced back to before she even set foot in Hollywood. I don't see Marilyn as a martyr whatsoever, but whatever floats others' boats.

Did you ever "Blonde" by Joyce Carol Oates? Not historically accurate, but a fantastic read about Marilyn.

I do not think she was saying she was MM. Stevie said she was referring to the feeling of reaching the top at an early age - Where do you go from there - Rumors II? She was also referring to the lonliness felt by many who get huge adulation from fans via applause, awards, etc. - but they then go home alone to their "normal" lives. So, I get what she is saying and do not find it strange at all.

I think the limo line is cool and does not have anything to do with how we traditionally view a martyr. I think she is being almost sarcastic by calling herself (or whomever) a martyr (she may also be saying they call me a martyr) and then saying she is a careless, clueless, limo riding individual or something like that.

My $0.02

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I do not think she was saying she was MM.

I don't either. I said that that it was ridiculous for her to say that she knew how Marilyn felt when Marilyn had mental illnesses that contributed to her state of my mind.

But I understand what you're getting at. Unfortunately, I think that line is another of Stevie's indulgences (i.e. clunky lines that no ordinary fan could relate to, therefore rendering it useless).

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
Unfortunately, I think that line is another of Stevie's indulgences (i.e. clunky lines that no ordinary fan could relate to, therefore rendering it useless).

Well, there's THAT

I know. Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on how you look at it ). We are pretty much walking historians for her - so we get it when mere mortals cannot without tedious explanation!!

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Well, there's THAT

I know. Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on how you look at it ). We are pretty much walking historians for her - so we get it when mere mortals cannot without tedious explanation!!

But even we can't relate to the indulgences! I dare anyone to say they relate to:

Well, you know me better than I know myself
"Will you write this for me?"
He said "No, you wirte your songs yourself."
That made me stronger
That made me hold onto me

It's crap. And she didn't even write the song completely by herself.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention


But even we can't relate to the indulgences! I dare anyone to say they relate to:

Well, you know me better than I know myself
"Will you write this for me?"
He said "No, you wirte your songs yourself."
That made me stronger
That made me hold onto me

It's crap. And she didn't even write the song completely by herself.

When I think that Space Needle or any other song could have been there instead of that tripe

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
When I think that Space Needle or any other song could have been there instead of that tripe

Martha Stewart reading the phonebook in that voice of hers would be a better listen.

"Stephanie Lynne Nicks, 555-9810. Oh, that reminds me of a seared black truffle I once made with white chiffon icing."

[Johnny Stew]

Even though we're not used to it in one of Stevie's songs, I've always felt she was being rather sardonic in "Joan Of Arc."

She's chastizing celebrities for a shallow reliance on image and affectation ("They depended upon illusion, calling the illusion 'gold and glitter'")... rolling her eyes at their "trivial" complaints ("They came in tired, and they said 'tired' was the end of the line")... and she's scoffing at the notion of those who feel they have it so rough because of their fame ("Well, there's a few martyrs in our century... they take a limousine, because everything else is taken care of").

They consider themselves martyrs to the cause, but "they don't even know what they died for."

And she's saying that she can't save any of them from themselves, because she's not Joan Of Arc... "this time."

To me, it reminds me of the sentiments she's conveyed about the meaning behind the phrase, "Priests of nothing," in "Has Anyone Ever Written Anything For You:"

(It's about) all of the rock and roll stars in the world that I know. They're all poets and they're all priests of nothing and they're all legends.

"Priests of nothing" means they don't try hard enough. They don't do with what they have, what I feel they could do.
And so whenever I get involved with any of them, I tend to become like their manager and their agent. You know, "Why don't we get out your piano and plug it in and write a song or something?.... And they forget they have a job, you know?"

So those are the things I've always felt "Joan Of Arc" was about.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention


But even we can't relate to the indulgences! I dare anyone to say they relate to:

Well, you know me better than I know myself
"Will you write this for me?"
He said "No, you wirte your songs yourself."
That made me stronger
That made me hold onto me

It's crap. And she didn't even write the song completely by herself.

"That Made Me Stronger" isn't one of my favorite songs (although I love the line, "Don't call me when you're lonely")... but I feel the best thing about Stevie's songs is that, even when we can't relate to the specific situation itself, most of us can relate to the ideal behind what she's saying.

So no, we can't relate to a famous friend turning down our request to write a song for us, and telling us that we can do it ourselves... but most of us can relate to those feelings of self-doubt and wanting someone to hold our hands thru something difficult.

I think many people have heard their friends say things like, "You don't need my help getting that job," or "You don't need me to introduce you to that guy over there... do it yourself."
And on that level, it is relatable.

Is Stevie wrong to not make the situations more universal? That's hard to say.
I think sometimes when you strive to make something too universal, it ends up becoming generic in the process.
Stevie's an honest and forthright writer, and she writes about what she knows best... her own life, as she's living it.

At times, it may come across as self-indulgent or narcissistic, but it always comes off honestly.
And I think it's why Stevie has some of the most rabid and devoted fans around... when you listen to her lyrics, she's not just singing at you, she's letting you into her life, with all of its glamour and romance, as well as all of its doubt and loneliness.

So we may not share common experiences with her (How many of us have been to Betty Ford?), but we do share common emotions, desires and fears.
One doesn't have to be rich and famous to relate to what she's saying in her songs in those regards.

[ricohv]

Yahoo Johnny Stew-
You're explanation of JOA is exactly what i was trying to word properly in my head in then I saw you read my mind and stole my thoughts and put them to words very literately. How do you always do that? Get out of my brain!

And I agree, we seem to think Stevie is narcisisstic if she writes lines that are abviously about her own life "he said no you write your song yourself" but almost all her songs are about her life. Just because "children get older and I'm geting older too" seems more universal, it is not any less narcissistic, as again she was writing about he own life. And like Johnny Stew said, it's not that you have to be so literal and say "hmmm, I've never had a famous friend who told me to write my own songs", it's that you have had a friend who encouraged you to be strong and do for yourself what you are capable of. And again I agree, it's these little glimpses into her life that we know are genuine and real that keep us hooked. If you like Celine Dion you might think that she was inspired to sing I Drove All Night because at one point in her life she really did drive all night to be with someone she loved. But there's just a good of chance that someone in her management said "Celine, here's a song you can make us all millions more dollars with, so sing it like you mean it" and she said "oui oui!" ...
but we KNOW Stevie had a low point and wanted Tom Petty to help revive her...and that is far more interesting, whether you are in love with the song or not. Now if you are in love with Celine , don't flame me here-as this is the Stevie page. Go do it in Chit-Chat (since I never go to that page!)
RICOH
p.s. dissention: I did read "Blonde'and loved it!