When I See You Again Appreciation Post!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Bella Figura
I was thinking of this all day as I read through this massive post. and I do include myself in this observation: But people who hang out on message boards instead of working for the betterment of mankind could also be called "self-centered and self-indulgent".

Based on the number of posts I have here, I'm sure guilty of being "self-indulgent" too!

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Poor Stevie... she writes a song conveying her very human reaction to what has to be the United States' greatest tragedy, dedicating it to those who lost their lives that day, and those who bravely risked theirs, and she gets called self-centered and indulgent in the process.

Meanwhile, Lindsey writes a song ("What's The World Coming To") about a big, bad record company not liking his album, and no one says a word.

What is the world coming to?

Good thing you don't use sarcasm.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Good thing you don't use sarcasm.

Now, now, let's not have another instance of miscommunication... what I actually said is that I don't speak to people with sarcasm.

That post wasn't sarcastic anyway... it was just an honest observation.

'Sides, I thought we agreed to drop this?

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Now, now, let's not have another instance of miscommunication... what I actually said is that I don't speak to people with sarcasm.

That post wasn't sarcastic anyway... it was just an honest observation.

'Sides, I thought we agreed to drop this?

Yes, we did, but it sure as hell looked like you were being sarcastic, especially since you picked on words that I had used in my posts. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in the interest of peace here, though I'm not sure what to make of this statement:

what I actually said is that I don't speak to people with sarcasm.

Does this mean you speak to animals with sarcasm? And if so, what are you saying about me?

I think we should try to make these posts less about the poster and more about the message. Perhaps you could have made a comment on what you think of the song to counter what I said instead?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Does this mean you speak to animals with sarcasm? And if so, what are you saying about me?

I may use a sarcastic tone in a broader, general kind of way... such as: "Dubya has had problems with drugs and alcohol, and can barely even control his own daughters, but apparently he knows what's best for the rest of us regarding morality."

But would I speak directly to the president, or anyone else, using a sarcastic tone? No, because that would be disrespectful and rude.
So that's what I meant by that comment.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I think we should try to make these posts less about the poster and more about the message.

That's a good suggestion actually, and I've often taken pains to qualify comments with "this isn't directed at anyone here," but even that's unfortunately not always adequate it seems.
And since you weren't the only one who has used the term "self-indulgent" here or in other threads, I didn't think to add it this time.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Perhaps you could have made a comment on what you think of the song to counter what I said instead?

I've discussed "Illumé's" merits in the past, so I didn't bother this time. I just felt like commenting on the fact that I've never seen anyone here, or on other message boards, chastize Lindsey for writing what... based on his own explanation of the inspiration behind the song... seems to me to be a very self-involved and somewhat self-pitying song.
While Stevie... even when her heart's in the right place... more often than not, get's lambasted for the same thing.

And Carne... in the hope of avoiding these types of miscommunications in the future... I want you to know that, despite the fact that we agree on very little (outside of politics, of all things!), and have engaged in very passionate debates on many occasions, I don't consider you the enemy or something, and I definitely don't have it out for you.

I realized years ago that life's way too short to hold grudges, or to carry hate, and trust me, people have done a lot worse to me than saying that a song I like sucks!
So you honestly don't have to worry that I'm making little digs directed at you, or something.

I just enjoy debating, and since we agree on very little when it comes to Stevie Nicks' music, it's often you and I in the middle of these discussions... but it's definitely not a personal thing.

And hopefully dissention knows that too!

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by CarneVaca

With all due respect, that's pretty outrageous. I'll be the first one to look at our history in the Middle East and say the source of our troubles is our own misguided policy, which by no way means I am justifying terrorism. However, to deduce from Lindsey's choice of voice effects on the song that he on that day reacted with "I told you so," is outlandish. There is no evidence of such sentiments by him anywhere that I have seen. And considering his anti-violence message on other SYW songs, I seriously doubt he would have reacted with anything but compassion and shock to the events of that day, the European papers' assessment notwithstanding. I understand why some Europeans are so cynical about Americans' reaction to the tragedy, but I don't see how you could possibly equate that with Lindsey's feelings. Not unless he says so.

That Lindsey might have laughed at Stevie's reaction, considering the self-centered approach in the song, is not far-fetched. But it's highly improbable. The man has said these songs are some of her best stuff yet (an assessment with which I disagree) so let's take him at his word, at least on this.

To be sure, there are far better songs out there about 9/11, even by unknown artists. But any detection of hints of sarcasm in the song is fantasy.

Amen. As for Lindsey's reaction to the song, Stevie said he got tears in his eyes, put his hand on her knee, and asked "How do you do it?"

I said this on the BuckinghamNicks.net board in response to Gaius' post - using the voices to mock Stevie as well as anyone feeling extreme grief for the victims of 911 would be appalling and, from the above quote, he feels that grief as well. I can't imagine where ANYONE would get the idea he thinks that the sentiment is one to be mocked - unless he/she were projecting his/her own ideas about 911 onto Lindsey.

Instead, I think Lindsey was once again trying to be "cool" and "different" by manipulating the voices and it backfired.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Poor Stevie... she writes a song conveying her very human reaction to what has to be the United States' greatest tragedy, dedicating it to those who lost their lives that day, and those who bravely risked theirs, and she gets called self-centered and indulgent in the process.

Meanwhile, Lindsey writes a song ("What's The World Coming To") about a big, bad record company not liking his album, and no one says a word.

What is the world coming to?

I agree with your first statement, but as to the second, I remember there being some criticism of Lindsey's take on "What's the World Coming To" - meaning "What's the World Coming To when my albums get rejected" - when discussing his lame answer regarding the cost of tickets. I was among the critics there, although I love my man Lindsey.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Good thing you don't use sarcasm.

Dude, LET IT GO.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Amen. As for Lindsey's reaction to the song, Stevie said he got tears in his eyes, put his hand on her knee, and asked "How do you do it?"

He said this in direct reference to Illume? I thought he said it in reference to the Phoenix four in general? HELP

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
He said this in direct reference to Illume? I thought he said it in reference to the Phoenix four in general? HELP

Yes. Look in the Uncut magazine article and you will find it - don't have time to read it again myself!

[DownOnRodeo]

Yep, I remember that bit, and it was in reference to Illume, not the Phoenix Four I couldn't really imagine that, as damn good as those songs are. (Hmm... Say You Will, Illume, DR ... what's the next one? Not Silver Girl?? )

Meanwhile, personally I'm surprised that not everyone who listened to Illume for the first time had a tear in their eye and thought 'How did she do it'. Stevie and the band were never going to release a song directly referring to 9/11. Except obviously the title directly referred to it, which still surprises me. But the song itself is an ethereal dirge about massive grief and trauma, being scared witless, being haunted at night...
One of my favourite lines goes something like 'When you haunt us, just remember that I was so scared' ('I was so scared' I read as sort of meaning 'I was levelled by sympathy for you'). It's that idea of being haunted that I assume inspired Lindsey to do that ghost voice. I get the impression that it ruins the song for some people because it stands out too much, whereas for me it just takes the song to an even deeper level. Plus, in terms of arrangement/production, it sets up Stevie for that awesome refrain sung in a higher, louder register. When she sings that, it's like she's shouting down the ghost, and by the end of the song it sounds like she's lulling into peaceful sleep, like she's successfully dealt with her demons. I love it!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I agree with your first statement, but as to the second, I remember there being some criticism of Lindsey's take on "What's the World Coming To" - meaning "What's the World Coming To when my albums get rejected" - when discussing his lame answer regarding the cost of tickets. I was among the critics there, although I love my man Lindsey.

Yikes, I actually forgot about that thread! Thanks for reminding me, Nancy.

Still, and I think you'd agree, nothing has really been said in those regards since last May.
Not that I'm saying Lindsey should be criticized, mind you... you know I like when songwriters write from a personal experience. Even if I don't necessarily relate to the situation (Stevie singing about the drawbacks of fortune and fame, for example), I greatly respect the ability to look inward and write about how one feels in regards to what's going on around them, and in their lives.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Yes. Look in the Uncut magazine article and you will find it - don't have time to read it again myself!

Much thanks!!!!!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by DownOnRodeo
Meanwhile, personally I'm surprised that not everyone who listened to Illume for the first time had a tear in their eye and thought 'How did she do it'. Stevie and the band were never going to release a song directly referring to 9/11. Except obviously the title directly referred to it, which still surprises me. But the song itself is an ethereal dirge about massive grief and trauma, being scared witless, being haunted at night...
One of my favourite lines goes something like 'When you haunt us, just remember that I was so scared' ('I was so scared' I read as sort of meaning 'I was levelled by sympathy for you'). It's that idea of being haunted that I assume inspired Lindsey to do that ghost voice. I get the impression that it ruins the song for some people because it stands out too much, whereas for me it just takes the song to an even deeper level. Plus, in terms of arrangement/production, it sets up Stevie for that awesome refrain sung in a higher, louder register. When she sings that, it's like she's shouting down the ghost, and by the end of the song it sounds like she's lulling into peaceful sleep, like she's successfully dealt with her demons. I love it!

Thanks, Joe!
From now on, I'll just quote you when I want to explain what I think is so amazing about "Illumé!"

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
And hopefully dissention knows that too!

You know I do, doll.

Here's my take on the whole WTWCT self-indulgence vs. the Illume self-indulgence:

IMO, What's the World Coming To is a song where unless you're a hardcore fan, you aren't going to know what the song is about. (I'm still not convinced that it is entirely about the music biz, though) The lyrics are vague enough where it can relate to many different life experiences or someone's view of the world in general. It doesn't scream "They hated my record, so here's bitter song for the motherf*ckers!" It's very vague in what it's about, therefore making it more accessible.

Illume, on the other hand, is noted as being about 9/11, but it isn't so much about 9/11 as it is about one persons view of those events. While that isn't a bad thing, and I genuinely believe that her heart was in the right place, it won't be accessible to a great deal of people for the simple fact that everyone has (or had) different feelings about those events. Not everyone burned Nag Champa in their rooms to mask the smell, etc. It can very well alienate the listener because of it's constraint of being about only one persons feelings. Stevie repeatedly uses "I" in the song and one starts to wonder if she couldn't have at least made one collective mention about everyone else and how they've been affected by those tragic events. I just think she over-indulges with it being about her throughout the entire song. "What I saw," "The candle that I burn," "I will not take you for granted," "I like the coastal cities," "I cannot pretend," etc.

However, after saying that, I think the song contains one of the most beautiful lyrics I've ever heard in my life:

I will not take you for granted
I wouldn't trade you for jade
Or for diamonds
Not for anything
Not for a minute