When I See You Again Appreciation Post!

[stefan]

Well how different tastes can be. Illume is really something different from the Stevie section. The guitar on that song is brilliant. When I listen to a few SYW songs- Illume is always one of them.

[dissention]

Originally posted by stefan
Well how different tastes can be. Illume is really something different from the Stevie section. The guitar on that song is brilliant. When I listen to a few SYW songs- Illume is always one of them.

I listen to it, I just think it's a bit ridiculous. I don't know what the intention of having those manipulated voices was; it cheapens the song and its message.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
I listen to it, I just think it's a bit ridiculous. I don't know what the intention of having those manipulated voices was; it cheapens the song and its message.

I agree. I think maybe LB was going for "this is the dark part of the some which conveys confusion" and then SN's fabulous belting "I'm alone now . . . " after is her soming back into the light a la the Ode to Joy chorus in the 9th of B (how's that for an analogy ) But, unlike B. , LB's use of this falls flat for me. I also will always maintain SN's failure to write a third stanza lessens the song's appeal to me. But, I like the song and think it is brilliantly written (just my opinion).

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I agree. I think maybe LB was going for "this is the dark part of the some which conveys confusion" and then SN's fabulous belting "I'm alone now . . . " after is her soming back into the light a la the Ode to Joy chorus in the 9th of B (how's that for an analogy ) But, unlike B. , LB's use of this falls flat for me. I also will always maintain SN's failure to write a third stanza lessens the song's appeal to me. But, I like the song and think it is brilliantly written (just my opinion).

I agree with you.

I couldn't believe when someone said that Lindsey used those voices to "lighten up" and joke around with the song.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Johnny, I didn't accuse of condescending or aggression. I did accuse you of sarcasm and exasperation, and I stand by that. Don't tell me, in all honesty, that when you suggested I didn't think Stevie could use a soundboard you weren't being sarcastic. That would be disengenuous. Sarcasm begets sarcasm. And your view of what constitutes "aggression" obviously differs from mine.

I see that we essentially had a miscommunication. You misused a couple of words that implied you were saying something other than what you meant to say, it appears. A good moderator would step back, examine what's going on and call it what it is--a misunderstanding. You chose to keep fighting. I would to. But I'm not a moderator.

I maintain that there was no sarcasm meant in that response.
My question to you about whether or not you thought Stevie could use a soundboard was purely out of the exasperation I was expressing in the entire response, and not sarcasm.

Anyone who knows me in person, or beyond these message boards, knows that I don't treat people with sarcasm.
My parents didn't talk to me with sarcasm as a child, and it's not my nature to talk to others that way as an adult. I find it rude, and I try to avoid rudeness at all times.

Yes, I agree with you on the miscommunication part... but I was taught that you talk thru a miscommunication until you have a better understanding of where the other is coming from.
I do that as a person and as a moderator. I didn't feel that I was "fighting," I felt that I was presenting the various reasons, and asking the proper questions, to explain my stance on the subject. Which is why I felt your responses seemed needlessly aggressive and condescending.

At any rate, I think it's time to move on from all of this silliness now, and I'm sure we can both agree on that.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
I couldn't believe when someone said that Lindsey used those voices to "lighten up" and joke around with the song.

Yeah, I definitely don't think that weird bridge was meant to "lighten" the song.

It's not the way I would have gone with it, but I think they (I don't want to put all the "blame" on Lindsey) chose to do that, to add somewhat of a sinister, dark tone to that section of the song.
I think it was Les that said, to her, the altered voices expressed the fear and confusion that people were feeling as everything was happening on September 11th.

I do have to say that I love how Stevie's voice comes bursting out of that section, crying, "Ooh, I'm alone now with my thoughts...."

No matter what can be said of it, I still feel that it's the most arresting and sincere of the various 9/11 inspired songs that I've heard.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
No matter what can be said of it, I still feel that it's the most arresting and sincere of the various 9/11 inspired songs that I've heard.

I think it is, too, but those damn voices...ugh.

Didn't they make you cringe at least once???

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
I think it is, too, but those damn voices...ugh.

Didn't they make you cringe at least once???

Oh yes - esp. after the IMO rather delightful opening stuff and the chorus (though "monotonal" ). I was just like "Oh come on - are we back to Madonna circa 1995" But, as I have said before, even with what I perceive as its faults, I still like the song and play it, though I skip through the comp. voices.

[CarneVaca]

Johnny Stew on Jan. 13:

My parents didn't talk to me with sarcasm as a child, and it's not my nature to talk to others that way as an adult. I find it rude, and I try to avoid rudeness at all times.

Perhaps we'll have to disagree on what "sarcasm" and "rude" is, but I am pretty good at recognizing it and here are some examples:

Johnny Stew on Jan. 9:

so surely she has enough knowledge of the soundboard to be able to drop her vocals out of a mix.

So what causes the improbability in your mind? And what would make it such a hard pill to swallow if she had?

Well, isn't that sweet?

But hey, you know, if you want to believe Stevie's just completely talking out of her ass there, and that the whole thing could only have been another one of Lindsey's brilliant touches, that's fine.

Johnny Stew on Jan. 10:

So thanks for the little pat on the head, Daddy.

Trust me, pal, you have no power in my life.

How miscommunications happen (notice the highlighted word):

Johnny Stew on Jan. 9:

You stated that it was "highly unlikely" Stevie removed her voice from the mix, which I assume to mean that you believe Lindsey must have recorded his vocal separately...

Johnny Stew on Jan. 13:

I think it's time to move on from all of this silliness now

I agree, but just had to make the point

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Johnny Stew on Jan. 10:

"Well, isn't that sweet?"

"So thanks for the little pat on the head, Daddy."

"Trust me, pal, you have no power in my life."

I'm not looking to beat a dead horse, as I think we've both agreed to move on... but the above comments were only made after your post telling me "down, boy," that my "beloved Nicks" surely could push up a "f***ing slider," and that "you'd have to be an idiot not to figure that out." You also told me to "take a deep breath," and later, to "stick to moderating."

I was insulted at that and the condescending tone of the rest of your post, and I responded accordingly.
But none of the other quotes you posted, were ever meant to be sarcastic.

Even as a moderator, I don't think anyone would expect me to just lay down and allow someone to treat me like a child or an idiot, without responding.
And you should note that even in my responses, I never once verbally attacked you or mistreated you.

Yeah, I'm a moderator, but I'm also a human being, and I don't think I deserve to be mistreated, and I don't think I should be expected to just pretend it didn't happen, when I am.

Now hopefully we've both made our final points on the matter.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Oh yes - esp. after the IMO rather delightful opening stuff and the chorus (though "monotonal" ). I was just like "Oh come on - are we back to Madonna circa 1995" But, as I have said before, even with what I perceive as its faults, I still like the song and play it, though I skip through the comp. voices.

You know, I always thought that the manipulated voice was actually the result of combining Lindsey's and Stevie's voice together. Did you ever think so?

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I'm not looking to beat a dead horse, as I think we've both agreed to move on... but the above comments were only made after your post telling me "down, boy," that my "beloved Nicks" surely could push up a "f***ing slider," and that "you'd have to be an idiot not to figure that out." You also told me to "take a deep breath," and later, to "stick to moderating."

I was insulted at that and the condescending tone of the rest of your post, and I responded accordingly.
But none of the other quotes you posted, were ever meant to be sarcastic.

Even as a moderator, I don't think anyone would expect me to just lay down and allow someone to treat me like a child or an idiot, without responding.
And you should note that even in my responses, I never once verbally attacked you or mistreated you.

Yeah, I'm a moderator, but I'm also a human being, and I don't think I deserve to be mistreated, and I don't think I should be expected to just pretend it didn't happen, when I am.

Now hopefully we've both made our final points on the matter.

Well, you contend that I misread your intent. I contend you misread mine. "Down, boy" was not to be taken seriously, nor was the "deep breath" comment. The "idiot" comment was certainly not hurled at you, or my response on the slider. I responded to what I perceived as an insult from you. You don't seem to get that. I don't know how else to explain that. You were putting words in my mouth and I didn't appreciate it.

Besides, you said,"My parents didn't talk to me with sarcasm as a child, and it's not my nature to talk to others that way as an adult." But the fact is you did, regardless of what provoked it. You used sarcasm and you were rude. So regardless of what your parents taught you or didn't, which is rather beside the point here, if you ask me, you were sarcastic and rude.

But I agree, let's move on.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
You know, I always thought that the manipulated voice was actually the result of combining Lindsey's and Stevie's voice together. Did you ever think so?

Well, I thought for awhile it was Stevie's voice alone because (no flames please) it was flat sounding as I imagined she would sound in that type of altered voice. But then, I got the DVD or CD-R or whatever (the fancy one) and was able to isolate that "noise" - when I did that, it sounds like two different voices. So, yea, I think it is the two of them or at least two voices.

[face of glass]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I think Lindsey and Stevie are equally as guilty of self-indulgences in their solo music.

And I definitely agree with this. I wasn’t speaking of “self-indulgences” in a negative way (if someone thought of that). I think it's a poor argument to criticize a particular work by.

Of course it depends on what one considers self-indulgent. Lindsey’s Tusk songs can be seen as such, because he’s on his own for most of them while he could have used the entire band. I guess “self-indulgent” for me is anything that puts the focus on a single person, is long and uses a non-standard, “artsy” song structure and seems like it’s coming directly from the personal world of the artist. I think they both tend to get self-indulgent a lot more than your “usual” rock/pop artist. Definitely something like the “wallowing-in-depression” of “Street Of Dreams” or the “patriotic” “Desert Angel” belong into this category.

Alternatively, I don’t think something like “Steal Your Heart Away” or “Thrown Down” can be called self-indulgent since those songs are something that even a person who doesn’t know a thing about the artists can identify with. And I’ve never heard anyone claim that Chris is self-indulgent in her writing. Which is probably why she will never attract as feverish following as Buckingham and Nicks, but I guess fans of Chris prefer it that way.

[face of glass]

Originally posted by dissention
I couldn't believe when someone said that Lindsey used those voices to "lighten up" and joke around with the song.

“You talkin’ to me?”

Yes, I made that comment at the BuckinghamNicks.net message board. Here’s the necessary disclaimer right away: none of the following is meant to underestimate the tragedy that was 9-11.

I do think it’s humorous in its own odd way. I agree with Johnny in that it is the “best” song about those events, simply because it doesn’t address the things that happened as such. Take out what’s in the brackets (“9-11”) from the title and only the biggest fans of Stevie will be able to connect it to what happened. That makes it a good lyric.

But ok, Lindsey’s use of the goofy voices in there does appear to me as if he’s mocking Stevie’s lyrics. Especially the “ooh, it’s never-ending” bit; the voice there seems very sarcastic. Of course you may think that this is another of LB’s cheap shots and that it’s inappropriate to insert something into such a song. Just like it’s inappropriate to fart during the “Star Spangled Banner”.

I do think Les came up with a great explanation for the use of those voices. My interpretation is different; LB wanted to mock Stevie’s message momentarily. Let’s look at that particular bit in the lyrics:

What I saw on this journey
I saw history go down
I cannot pretend
That the heartache falls away
It's just like a river
Oooh, it's never-ending
I cannot pretend
That the heartache falls away

You may cringe at the voices; I cringe at some of these lyrics and think that they would come off as somewhat preachy if it wasn’t for Stevie (and the manipulated voices) who sings them. She’s basically representing her own take on the whole catastrophe and it is very one-sided. She focuses on her own version of the tragedy; that of an American (or European, whichever you prefer) who now for the first time in her life faces some of the same struggles that people living in other parts of the world have suffered from for centuries. The using of words like “heartache” and “never-ending” definitely seems appropriate in a situation like that but when looked at from the viewpoint of those who are not as privileged as Americans and Europeans, it comes off as laughable. Yes, the things that happened may leave traces on her but none of them will be significant; she’ll carry on living for years to come.

LB’s using of those voices puts in a sarcastic slant; he wants to emphasize the fact that while a few thousand people may have died in New York, a lot more people died elsewhere that day and not because of “natural” reasons. On that particular day in September 2001 he must have thought along the lines of “I told you so”, like a significant amount of European newspapers did. He does not belittle the events themselves; he belittles Stevie’s experiences while knowing that most of those common Americans and Europeans who were so “shocked” by the events will once again be continuing their egotism. In short, they haven’t learned a thing.

Ok, that’s very far-fetched. But admit it, you definitely wouldn’t want to think that LB is laughing in the middle of such an “important” song. For me, though, it’s not the ultimate take on 9-11, it’s just another way of looking at it. And LB’s hints at sarcasm prove that there’s far more expressed in the track than just “common grief”.

Here’s another choice that’ll be as discussed as “When I See You Again” years from now.