Frozen Love Podcast

[DownOnRodeo]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

It all really reinforces that they actually should have cowriting credit on many if not most of her FM songs. She writes a simple melody to her lyrics, but he composes almost all the musical parts. But her ego just won't allow it. He did a British interview some years back saying that many of her songs should have properly been cowrites (Rhiannon and Landslide for sure). By today's standards, they would be both credited.

I haven't listened to the podcast, but early-career Lindsey could have all the hookiest guitar meolodies and genuis arrangements in the world and still not write lyrics like early-career Stevie. I'm not sure what the default standard for "songwriting" credit should be, but it would be a mistake to unfairly minimise the value and power those lyrics have all on their own. No one's suggesting the songs would have succeeded had Stevie somehow produced them herself and played the instruments. But even if it wasn't Lindsey et al, those same lyrics, singer, performer and personality would, I think, surely have met with some degree of success even with a different music/arrangement/production.

Lindsey probably should have taken producer credits prior to Tusk, though.

[cbBen]

Originally Posted by DownOnRodeo

I haven't listened to the podcast, but early-career Lindsey could have all the hookiest guitar meolodies and genuis arrangements in the world and still not write lyrics like early-career Stevie. I'm not sure what the default standard for "songwriting" credit should be, but it would be a mistake to unfairly minimise the value and power those lyrics have all on their own. No one's suggesting the songs would have succeeded had Stevie somehow produced them herself and played the instruments. But even if it wasn't Lindsey et al, those same lyrics, singer, performer and personality would, I think, surely have met with some degree of success even with a different music/arrangement/production.

Lindsey probably should have taken producer credits prior to Tusk, though.

As Bella Donna demonstrates. As per the podcast, Lindsey received writing credit on "Frozen Love" because he wrote the instrumental passages between the lyrics. That is different from fashioning sympathetic guitar parts and such, as Lindsey did on Stevie's other songs. Her songs on BN are much better than his. She was the better songwriter through the seventies or early eighties. Sometime later in the eighties, Lindsey became the better songwriter.

[BrownEyedGirl26]

Originally Posted by WalkAThinLine.

I just want to clarify that I didn't upload the podcast - I merely posted it here.

Okay sorry, I meant thankyou for posting it here!

[aleuzzi]

As much as Stevie annoys me these days, her views on song authorship align with mine. No matter how skeletal the song might be, if those lyrics and melodies and basic chord changes are yours then it’s your song.

Lindsey never could understand this. He was a producer. Producers arrange and produce. They can make magnificent soundscapes out of even the most basic structures. That he snaked a co-writing credit for Christine’s “That’s How I Feel” (and from “Little Lies”) was pretty lame. But Christine didn’t seem to care. She was secure in her abilities as a songwriter and could he generous to a fault.

Stevie was/is protective of her songs. Good for her.

Lindsey often goes out of his way to explain how vital he was to crafting arrangements and producing those records. He certainly was, but his insistence on his role in the song’s transformation from demo to finished product—often at the expense of undermining the women’s songwriting autonomy—sometimes make him seem petty and jealous. It makes him look smaller than he is. It makes him look a bit desperate.

[BigAl84]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

As much as Stevie annoys me these days, her views on song authorship align with mine. No matter how skeletal the song might be, if those lyrics and melodies and basic chord changes are yours then it’s your song.

Lindsey never could understand this. He was a producer. Producers arrange and produce. They can make magnificent soundscapes out of even the most basic structures. That he snaked a co-writing credit for Christine’s “That’s How I Feel” (and from “Little Lies”) was pretty lame. But Christine didn’t seem to care. She was secure in her abilities as a songwriter and could he generous to a fault.

Stevie was/is protective of her songs. Good for her.

Lindsey often goes out of his way to explain how vital he was to crafting arrangements and producing those records. He certainly was, but his insistence on his role in the song’s transformation from demo to finished product—often at the expense of undermining the women’s songwriting autonomy—sometimes make him seem petty and jealous. It makes him look smaller than he is. It makes him look a bit desperate.

Hold up...
Christine was happy to explain in interviews that there were several songs that literally came from small "fragments" that she sent to Lindsey with full intention of having him take a pass a developing them into an actual song because she wasn't able to take the fragment any further. While none of us have heard these fragments - Christine definitely didn't say she had the chords and melody for "Feel About You" figured out and sent it to Lindsey for his flourishes. She openly talked about part of the magic of that project was the fact that she often had little fragments that he was able to develop further.

There's also a larger issue that involves the definition of melody. I'm not a music scholar, but I'm not confident that strumming some chords on a guitar or playing them on a piano is equivalent to crafting a melody. I looked this up and this is what I found:

The fundamental difference between melody and chord progression is how they are constructed. Melody is a sequence of single notes that follow each other. while a chord progression is made up of chords, which are groups of multiple notes played simultaneously. Melodies tend to be formed of single “melody lines” making them more fluid and adaptable. Chords on the other hand provide harmonic stability and fill out the sound.

Chord Progressions provide the foundation and support to give melodies context. The melody is designed to grab the listener’s attention while the chord progression works subtly in the background to enhance the song’s emotional depth.

Structurally, the melody often moves around, rising and falling in pitch while Chord progressions usually cycle predictably, offering stability and structure. This contrast between a fluent flowing melody and a steady chord progression represents the fundamentals of melodic composition and song structure.

I would argue that in a lot of instances, Stevie came to the table with some lyrics and a chord progression - but Lindsey figured out the actual melody. Dreams is a perfect example. I'm not saying Dreams isn't her song and that it should be credited as Lindsey's - they were a musical partnership in a lot of ways where he helped fill in each others gaps. There's always been a bit of an ego driven bias with Stevie when she talks about this exact dynamic and it's been inconsistent. Some days she's happy to admit that a lot of her Fleetwood Mac songs wouldn't be what they are without his help, other days/years it's "my demo was better, I don't want to work with Lindsey" etc etc. If you were to ask Stevie about Dreams, I don't think she would ever for a second say that Lindsey was responsible for developing the melody.

Undermining the women’s songwriting autonomy? There are countless interviews where Lindsey goes out of his way to say Stevie will come in with a beautiful lyric and then go into describing his contribution to the process. He even said in this podcast that he didn't feel she seeked his input on her lyrics and he didn't seek her input on his lyrics. They both knew and understand how they each contributed to each others work.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by BigAl84

Hold up...
Christine was happy to explain in interviews that there were several songs that literally came from small "fragments" that she sent to Lindsey with full intention of having him take a pass a developing them into an actual song because she wasn't able to take the fragment any further. While none of us have heard these fragments - Christine definitely didn't say she had the chords and melody for "Feel About You" figured out and sent it to Lindsey for his flourishes. She openly talked about part of the magic of that project was the fact that she often had little fragments that he was able to develop further.

There's also a larger issue that involves the definition of melody. I'm not a music scholar, but I'm not confident that strumming some chords on a guitar or playing them on a piano is equivalent to crafting a melody. I looked this up and this is what I found:

The fundamental difference between melody and chord progression is how they are constructed. Melody is a sequence of single notes that follow each other. while a chord progression is made up of chords, which are groups of multiple notes played simultaneously. Melodies tend to be formed of single “melody lines” making them more fluid and adaptable. Chords on the other hand provide harmonic stability and fill out the sound.

Chord Progressions provide the foundation and support to give melodies context. The melody is designed to grab the listener’s attention while the chord progression works subtly in the background to enhance the song’s emotional depth.

Structurally, the melody often moves around, rising and falling in pitch while Chord progressions usually cycle predictably, offering stability and structure. This contrast between a fluent flowing melody and a steady chord progression represents the fundamentals of melodic composition and song structure.

I would argue that in a lot of instances, Stevie came to the table with some lyrics and a chord progression - but Lindsey figured out the actual melody. Dreams is a perfect example. I'm not saying Dreams isn't her song and that it should be credited as Lindsey's - they were a musical partnership in a lot of ways where he helped fill in each others gaps. There's always been a bit of an ego driven bias with Stevie when she talks about this exact dynamic and it's been inconsistent. Some days she's happy to admit that a lot of her Fleetwood Mac songs wouldn't be what they are without his help, other days/years it's "my demo was better, I don't want to work with Lindsey" etc etc. If you were to ask Stevie about Dreams, I don't think she would ever for a second say that Lindsey was responsible for developing the melody.

Undermining the women’s songwriting autonomy? There are countless interviews where Lindsey goes out of his way to say Stevie will come in with a beautiful lyric and then go into describing his contribution to the process. He even said in this podcast that he didn't feel she seeked his input on her lyrics and he didn't seek her input on his lyrics. They both knew and understand how they each contributed to each others work.

Big disagree on some points. In many interviews for BuckVie, it was clear Christine sent Lindsey rough demos of her work. On the album those songs are Feel About You, Carnival Begin, and Game of Pretend. The fragments you are talking about were the ones she took from him for two additional tracks made in outright, songwriting collaborations with him: Red Sun and Too Far Gone. But Feel About You was a Christine song that Lindsey was given a cowrite to for his heavy presence in the production—and in “undermining” (his word) her demo version. Even in this context, that’s more production than cowriting.

Stevie had the chords and basic melody figured out for Dreams. It’s very rudimentary but it was there before Lindsey made it a masterpiece.

I’m not saying Lindsey wasn’t enormously important in creating the sound for these songs, but did the Beatles give George Martin co-writing credits? No. Lindsey has said he believed he should have been given co-writing credits on some of those classic songs. I think that’s absurd. He was producing those songs. Period.

[lbfan]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

Lindsey has said he believed he should have been given co-writing credits on some of those classic songs. I think that’s absurd. He was producing those songs. Period.

I seem to recall Lindsey saying, in the context of the shared song writing credit that other bands utilized, that he MIGHT have deserved credit. I have never heard him say that he SHOULD have been given credit. If you have a link to where he said he SHOULD have been given credit, please provide. In a Q&A with Richard Dashut, he commented that Lindsey was always very generous in sharing song-writing credit. He felt some of his contributions were minimal and didn’t deserve any credit. He did not get any credit on the song Trouble, but felt his contributions on that song were greater than some on which he did receive credit.

I agree that he should have been given co-producer credit on Rumours and Tusk.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

Lindsey often goes out of his way to explain how vital he was to crafting arrangements and producing those records. He certainly was, but his insistence on his role in the song’s transformation from demo to finished product—often at the expense of undermining the women’s songwriting autonomy—sometimes make him seem petty and jealous. It makes him look smaller than he is. It makes him look a bit desperate.

If you have to constantly tell everyone how you crafted the songs, there's probably a bit of untruth or lack of confidence going on.

That includes Christine, too. Despite her sales, she had a top 10 hit out of the gate without him producing. Of course, he did a great job on "I'd Rather Go Blind". That song never would have climbed so high without his work!

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

If you have to constantly tell everyone how you crafted the songs, there's probably a bit of untruth or lack of confidence going on.

That includes Christine, too. Despite her sales, she had a top 10 hit out of the gate without him. Of course, he did a great job on "I'd Rather Go Blind". That song never would have climbed so high without his work!

Hahahaha! You’re a Treasure!

[dougl]

Great Frozen Love cover here:

https://youtu.be/TiXRFQYi_QI?si=E27KVqN8NuIZEPym

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

Big disagree on some points. In many interviews for BuckVie, it was clear Christine sent Lindsey rough demos of her work. On the album those songs are Feel About You, Carnival Begin, and Game of Pretend. The fragments you are talking about were the ones she took from him for two additional tracks made in outright, songwriting collaborations with him: Red Sun and Too Far Gone. But Feel About You was a Christine song that Lindsey was given a cowrite to for his heavy presence in the production—and in “undermining” (his word) her demo version. Even in this context, that’s more production than cowriting.

Stevie had the chords and basic melody figured out for Dreams. It’s very rudimentary but it was there before Lindsey made it a masterpiece.

I’m not saying Lindsey wasn’t enormously important in creating the sound for these songs, but did the Beatles give George Martin co-writing credits? No. Lindsey has said he believed he should have been given co-writing credits on some of those classic songs. I think that’s absurd. He was producing those songs. Period.

Agree, Stevie most definitely wrote her melodies-- she's SINGING them for pete's sake. Her chords are pretty minimal-- and she herself admits this saying she knows like 4 chords. I don't know how often he changed her actual chords, dunno, but he sure fleshed them out and made them full recordings.

He does say on an interview with a British guy interviewer (the two of them are sitting onstage in front of an audience and Lindsey has his guitar to illustrate some of his points) that some of her songs should probably have been cowrites. I'll have to find it.

[sue]

I am not a musician…even the Ukulele is beyond me..

But I think Stevie comes up with a melody, Lindsey fleshes it out with chords and arrangements.
Then adds key changes and atmospheric sounds.
His gift is hearing how a simple melody can become a song.

She just writes a simple melody

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by sue

I am not a musician…even the Ukulele is beyond me..

But I think Stevie comes up with a melody, Lindsey fleshes it out with chords and arrangements.
Then adds key changes and atmospheric sounds.
His gift is hearing how a simple melody can become a song.

She just rights a simple melody

I'm not a musician either. So I wonder what or how much do you have to study to learn chords, sheet music, etc.? Because I remember Lindsey saying in 1997...

Christine and I somehow had a common foundation, even though she was
trained and I was not...

So what did he study to become a musician?

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by Villavic

I'm not a musician either. So I wonder what or how much do you have to study to learn chords, sheet music, etc.? Because I remember Lindsey saying in 1997...

Christine and I somehow had a common foundation, even though she was
trained and I was not...

So what did he study to become a musician?

I am a musician, and I'd fallen in love with Rumours, so I went out and bought the Rumours chord book, and taught myself guitar, and a year or two later, keyboards. IMO, keyboards are MUCH easier than guitar(since guitar requires callouses, it's kind of painful when you're a noobie)

Lindsey studied the Beach Boys and the Kingston Trio.

[bombaysaffires]

great interview, and starting around 19:30 Lindsey goes through some of what he brought to Dreams to make it a viable song. (Also great coz he talks in the BN section about the various jobs and gigs he did to make them money which of course Stevie conveniently leaves out in her telling of events, making it like she was the only one who worked).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIThSD4PAzs&t=10s