Say you will

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by sue

And Everybody finds out…I don’t like Stevie’s voice on that one.

I forgot that's another song I usually skip.

[cbBen]

I like the album, and especially like the production.

Crazy that Lindsey pushed so hard for MORE songs on the album, because the 18 on there is way too many as it is. In addition to being shorter, the album should have included "Wait For You" (I can hear where Stevie's vocal would go) and "Down On Rodeo," both of which would have been highlights.

In the title track and "Peacekeeper," they really chose safe and relatively weak songs with which to promote the album.

It would be nice to hear from Lindsey what additional songs he would have put on the album if it had beed the double-disc he wanted. That Stevie Nicks song on the deluxe edition is bad.

Had I been Mick ad the other band members, instead of arguing for a shorter album on the basis of sales and such, I would have taken on Lindsey on his home turf, so to speak. I would have said that, artistically, the album would be weaker as a 2-CD.

[WalkAThinLine.]

Originally Posted by cbBen

I like the album, and especially like the production.

Crazy that Lindsey pushed so hard for MORE songs on the album, because the 18 on there is way too many as it is. In addition to being shorter, the album should have included "Wait For You" (I can hear where Stevie's vocal would go) and "Down On Rodeo," both of which would have been highlights.

In the title track and "Peacekeeper," they really chose safe and relatively weak songs with which to promote the album.

It would be nice to hear from Lindsey what additional songs he would have put on the album if it had beed the double-disc he wanted. That Stevie Nicks song on the deluxe edition is bad.

Had I been Mick ad the other band members, instead of arguing for a shorter album on the basis of sales and such, I would have taken on Lindsey on his home turf, so to speak. I would have said that, artistically, the album would be weaker as a 2-CD.

I thought that "Peacekeeper" and the title track were fine singles. The only songs that would have been better selections in my opinion would have been "Steal Your Heart Away", "Thrown Down", and maybe "Bleed to Love Her".

In terms of scrapped songs, a bunch of the songs you mentioned were contenders. "Down on Rodeo", "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind", "I Am Waiting", "Wait For You", "Right Place to Fade", and "Gift of Screws" were all holdovers from the 1990s that later appeared on Lindsey's solo albums, as was "Try For the Sun". Of Stevie's songs, "Not Make Believe" was in the running at some point. She submitted roughly 18 or 19 songs for the sessions initially and added four more to my understanding, so there were a lot of leftovers that failed to make the cut. They probably could have recorded another album if they wanted to with their surplus of material.

[Macfan4life]

Originally Posted by cbBen

I like the album, and especially like the production.

Crazy that Lindsey pushed so hard for MORE songs on the album, because the 18 on there is way too many as it is. In addition to being shorter, the album should have included "Wait For You" (I can hear where Stevie's vocal would go) and "Down On Rodeo," both of which would have been highlights.

In the title track and "Peacekeeper," they really chose safe and relatively weak songs with which to promote the album.

It would be nice to hear from Lindsey what additional songs he would have put on the album if it had beed the double-disc he wanted. That Stevie Nicks song on the deluxe edition is bad.

Had I been Mick ad the other band members, instead of arguing for a shorter album on the basis of sales and such, I would have taken on Lindsey on his home turf, so to speak. I would have said that, artistically, the album would be weaker as a 2-CD.

This is debated in the documentary. Stevie and Mick insisted on a basic 12 song album for fear people would be lost in the music (Tusk hangover). Lindsey wanted a huge album. I think he felt and knew how well the band was playing and they had some great songs. Stevie had some good new ones and a classic or two. No Welcome To the room Sara, When I see You again, Second Time, Affairs of the Heart on this album for sure. In the end my memory is that Mick caved to Lindsey and they worked out a compromise although Stevie was still upset about it. There is a premonition from Mick when he says, if the album only sells 500k copies Lindsey is going to be crushed. Well the album only sold 500k copies. I am in camp Lindsey. Who cares the album has extra songs. Like Tusk the album has a little bit of everything for everybody. While I think Peacekeeper is a decent song I think Thrown Down should have been the lead single. That's the record executive in me though. Everybody Finds Out is the best song on the album and should have been the first single.
I never could understand why people wanted to shorten the album just for commercial sake. Music is not about pop charts and sales. The artist wants to share all the colors sometimes. Like you I believe the album has the strongest production value since Rumours. The music is incredible. Its almost like they are playing extra hard and extra creative trying to make up for Chris's absence.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by WalkAThinLine.

The only songs that would have been better selections in my opinion would have been "Steal Your Heart Away", "Thrown Down", and maybe "Bleed to Love Her".

I agree. Actually I like Steal and Thrown more than the two singles. I love Bleed, but since it was already included in The Dance, I'm not sure if it would have been a good move.

I always understood the discussion about the double album was mainly commercial reasons. I think Stevie explained in that moment that people who bought Mac records were adults, parents, etc. with other priorities and would not spend on an expensive record. That's a good point, from a commercial point of view of course. Fans like us who priorize the music, buy the record anyway. But remember there is always a record company behind the releases. If Lindsey wanted to keep recording albums, I think releasing a single album was the best move. Unfortunately, they never released another one.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by Street_Dreamer

Interestingly, Christine didn't write that song. Billy Burnette and George Hawkins did.

She also wrote it. It's a co-write. And I'm so glad those two are on it. Honorary Christine McVie Band members.

[Ulpian]

I remember SYW’s release very well.

I knew I’d struggle with it. Christine was always the magnet that pulled me in to FM and without her I simply wasn’t keen.

I listened to it and all I could wonder was which tracks she was on. At the time I recall people speculating that she was on “Murrow” and clearly she played a part in the two tracks which predated, or were contemporaneous with, the Dance.

I didn’t love it. I still don’t. That said, I like several tracks on it. Beyond the “Christine ones”, “Destiny Rules” and “Thrown Down” are favourites, as is “Murrow”. I like “Goodbye Baby” and I don’t mind “Peacekeeper” or “Say You Will” at all.

To be blunt, I listen to “Sad Angel” and “Miss Fantasy” more than any SYW track thesedays. That, I suspect, makes me an outlier…

[FuzzyPlum]

Though I don’t love Say You Will, I do think it had a cool (and still) contemporary sound. As a barometer, I’ve always felt a tad embarrassed to play Tusk in public to non Mac fans. But Say You Will is edgy in a cooler way. I can imagine it playing as background music at some sort of artsy corporate event.

[DownOnRodeo]

Originally Posted by sue

Now I like Say you will …always have..but it’s just grown and grown on me.
In fact it’s right up there with Rumours for me…

I like most tracks on Say you will, there’s only maybe two I’m not keen on.
And some tracks are very good.

I honestly don’t understand why people don’t like it.
What is the problem with Say you will ??
Why is it people don’t like it ??

Me too, Sue.

On recent cross-country car-trip it was very late at night with spooky mists on the road. I felt in the mood for Tango so I played that album on my MP3 player. When that finished, the Say You Will album started playing. I thought "I'll just listen to the first song and leave it at that." But as each song played I wanted to hear them as well. I did stop halfway through just because it's such a long album and I'd already listened to Tango all the way through.

I do have issues with the album -- mainly that something with the mixing is very sharp and grating to my ears -- but it has lots of standout tracks and is always a blast of fresh raw creative air.

And the political theme is holding up so strongly 20 years later -- tracks like WTWCT, Murrow, Illume, Peacekeeper, Red Rover. They could have been written yesterday.

I would prefer that Lindsey's "Wait For You" and "Down On Rodeo" were on it instead of "Bleed To Love Her" and "Steal Your Heart Away." Or, even better, that it was a regular length album and they had released a couple more in the 2000s.

On my MP3 player I sub out the album versino of Peacekeeper for Lindsey's solo version, which I prefer. And I have separate compilations of "SYW - Stevie" and "SYW - Lindsey", comprising their respective songs. Those are a much more coherent listening experience than listening to the combined track list on the album. (And I believe Lindsey's original double album idea involved having one disc Lindsey material and one disc Stevie material, or am I making that up?)

[FuzzyPlum]

Originally Posted by DownOnRodeo

Me too, Sue.

On recent cross-country car-trip it was very late at night with spooky mists on the road. I felt in the mood for Tango so I played that album on my MP3 player. When that finished, the Say You Will album started playing. I thought "I'll just listen to the first song and leave it at that." But as each song played I wanted to hear them as well. I did stop halfway through just because it's such a long album and I'd already listened to Tango all the way through.

I do have issues with the album -- mainly that something with the mixing is very sharp and grating to my ears -- but it has lots of standout tracks and is always a blast of fresh raw creative air.

And the political theme is holding up so strongly 20 years later -- tracks like WTWCT, Murrow, Illume, Peacekeeper, Red Rover. They could have been written yesterday.

I would prefer that Lindsey's "Wait For You" and "Down On Rodeo" were on it instead of "Bleed To Love Her" and "Steal Your Heart Away." Or, even better, that it was a regular length album and they had released a couple more in the 2000s.

On my MP3 player I sub out the album versino of Peacekeeper for Lindsey's solo version, which I prefer. And I have separate compilations of "SYW - Stevie" and "SYW - Lindsey", comprising their respective songs. Those are a much more coherent listening experience than listening to the combined track list on the album. (And I believe Lindsey's original double album idea involved having one disc Lindsey material and one disc Stevie material, or am I making that up?)

Great post- food for thought.
I can’t remember my timelines- probably a bit later but I remember OutKast’s: the love below/speakerboxxx being a similar double album concept. That one was massive.
Alternatively, could they have done a ‘use your illusions’ I/II type of thing and release them separately?

[Tusky]

Do you guys see this as the start of final breaking point of the L&S relationship?

Watching DR - I see the what had always have bonded them (their musical compatibility) had gone. I don't think Stevie liked the album and never trusted him in the same way.

[cbBen]

Originally Posted by Tusky

Do you guys see this as the start of final breaking point of the L&S relationship?

Watching DR - I see the what had always have bonded them (their musical compatibility) had gone. I don't think Stevie liked the album and never trusted him in the same way.

Yes, but not just because of musical differences – though those are there (Lindsey more off-kilter, Stevie more conventional).

The failure of the prior two FM studio albums, perhaps among other things, causes Lindsey to miscalculate his value relative to Stevie's.

He seems to lack recognition that Stevie is the star. He talks and acts as though he is doing her (and the others) a favor, but in the case of Stevie it's the other way around.

At the time he could not get his music released without FM, which means without Stevie (see quote below where he comes to see as much). Stevie had just released a solo album so the same was not true in the other direction.

Also Lindsey uses so much emotional manipulation in pursuit of getting his way. I could easily see Stevie thinking, "Never again. I have no need to take a backseat position to this guy in the studio* (and when she became big enough for that to hold true on stage as well, she ended things there too). *(Note that when Lindsey next talks of FM making an album, he says it will be with an outside producer.)

And finally, they have different goals. He prioritizes art over money. The others including Stevie simply don't in the same way. (Note his and Stevie's respective output since music stopped selling.)

"I would be completely happy to continue with this, never to pursue anything solo again. Because it's a hell of a lot easier."–Lindsey Buckingham, after finally getting his music out via Say You Will: https://www.fleetwoodmac-uk.com/articles/FMart115.html

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by Tusky

Do you guys see this as the start of final breaking point of the L&S relationship?

Watching DR - I see the what had always have bonded them (their musical compatibility) had gone. I don't think Stevie liked the album and never trusted him in the same way.

I agree with her, the album is all over the place with no cohesive thread of any kind. She didn't care for the production either. (It's her career, too)

You're right, B/N is a true collaboration where they had a romantic and musical bond. Even Twisted, I didn't see any of that bond. Quite the snooze, like most of SYW. Good songs, yes. Any real chemistry that's electric or compelling?, naw.

[cbBen]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

I agree with her, the album is all over the place with no cohesive thread of any kind. She didn't care for the production either. (It's her career, too)

You're right, B/N is a true collaboration where they had a romantic and musical bond. Even Twisted, I didn't see any of that bond. Quite the snooze, like most of SYW. Good songs, yes. Any real chemistry that's electric or compelling?, naw.

They recorded a majority of her songs without her there (she was on tour) and, after the fact, she added her vocals. Perhaps the production would have been more to her liking had she been there to provide input during the recording of those songs.

As it happened she may have arrived, heard what Lindsey did with her songs, and thought "He made them weird."

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by cbBen

They recorded a majority of her songs without her there (she was on tour) and, after the fact, she added her vocals. Perhaps the production would have been more to her liking had she been there to provide input during the recording of those songs.

As it happened she may have arrived, heard what Lindsey did with her songs, and thought "He made them weird."

And Miss Thing has always had problems with producers. Even the ones that she's chosen.