What if we had Rumours 2?

[FuzzyPlum]

Lindsey decided to go leftfield on Tusk as he felt there was no point in making a Rumours 2. At the time Tusk was considered a failure but in recent times Tusk has been lauded and even been claimed an artistic master stroke. But was it….really?

If they’d stuck to formula and made a conventional album how would things have panned out?

Fleetwood Mac are one of the biggest bands of all time, but not the biggest. They’d never have reached the echelons of the Beatles or even the Stones, but they are probably considered a rung below Pink Floyd, Led Zep, U2 and probably a few others. If they’d have made a commercial follow up to Rumours it probably wouldn’t have sold the same numbers, but probably loads more than Tusk. Would that have catapulted them onto other mega selling follow up albums? Would they have been less likely to fragment and focus so much on solo projects? We got 2 more decent albums after Tusk. So did Tusk really kill the band? Would a mega selling follow up have led to a string of mega selling records throughout the 80’s? In fact, what’s to say a conventional album on the back of rumours wouldn’t have surpassed it to the extent they aren’t forever defined by rumours?

Ultimately, was it a bad decision?

[WalkAThinLine.]

Originally Posted by FuzzyPlum

Lindsey decided to go leftfield on Tusk as he felt there was no point in making a Rumours 2. At the time Tusk was considered a failure but in recent times Tusk has been lauded and even been claimed an artistic master stroke. But was it….really?

If they’d stuck to formula and made a conventional album how would things have panned out?

Fleetwood Mac are one of the biggest bands of all time, but not the biggest. They’d never have reached the echelons of the Beatles or even the Stones, but they are probably considered a rung below Pink Floyd, Led Zep, U2 and probably a few others. If they’d have made a commercial follow up to Rumours it probably wouldn’t have sold the same numbers, but probably loads more than Tusk. Would that have catapulted them onto other mega selling follow up albums? Would they have been less likely to fragment and focus so much on solo projects? We got 2 more decent albums after Tusk. So did Tusk really kill the band? Would a mega selling follow up have led to a string of mega selling records throughout the 80’s? In fact, what’s to say a conventional album on the back of rumours wouldn’t have surpassed it to the extent they aren’t forever defined by rumours?

Ultimately, was it a bad decision?

Minus Lindsey's contributions, Tusk was not too far off from being a Rumours 2. Just add some brighter production to the Christine and Stevie songs, retain songs like "Save Me a Place" and "I Know I'm Not Wrong", and "That's All For Everyone", and you get something that could be a more faithful follow-up to Rumours. There's a bit of a misnomer that Rumours was lacking in experimentation, but songs like "Oh Daddy" and "Gold Dust Woman" have a decent amount of quirks. The theoretical Rumours 2 could have had more of an edge to it while still keeping a level of commercial viability. However, some of the same problems that plagued Tusk would have impacted Rumours 2, including the record slump of 1979 and the RCA leak. Would a Rumours 2 be a double album? If so, it would have carried a very similar listing price to Tusk.

[Macfan4life]

I would not say Tusk killed the band but it did alter them the rest of their career. Tusk was lavishly recorded and while on the road. Its insane spending left them to hire each of their own managers and the band was no longer managed by Mick.
The phrase "Rumours 2" is a Lindsey creation. There is no way there could have ever been a Rumours 2. I think he meant the success standard for comparison.
Tusk permanently changed the way the band recorded for the next 2 albums. The next 2 albums were not "Rumours 2" but they were specifically crafted to be soft, radio friendly, light pop sound. This change caused them to lose some rock credibility with rock radio station and fans.
I still think there would have been solo careers even if Tusk was a traditional Mac album. I also think Lindsey sort of overreacted to Rumour's success. Warner did not run the album into the ground. It only released 4 singles where the last one (Don't Stop) was the second highest charting single from the album. It was a good album and deserved the success it had. I will agree with Lindsey that any new album would be compared to Rumours no matter what. Hotel California was a huge success for the Eagles. It sold 9 million copies and was #1. The follow up "The Long Run" took 18 months to record. The album went to #1 again and had big singles like Hotel California. It sold a little less than Hotel California but no one cared or noticed. Personally I think The Long Run is a better album to Hotel California by far. The Long Run was full of experimentation by the Eagles. I think Rolling Stone called it "risky and fresh." It definitely was not Hotel California 2.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by WalkAThinLine.

Minus Lindsey's contributions, Tusk was not too far off from being a Rumours 2.

And that's more like what I've always imagined. More than a Rumours 2 with songs aligned to a commercial style, I always wonder what if it hadn't been a double album, selecting the songs most similar to the Rumours sound.

[Macfan4life]

Originally Posted by Villavic

And that's more like what I've always imagined. More than a Rumours 2 with songs aligned to a commercial style, I always wonder what if it hadn't been a double album, selecting the songs most similar to the Rumours sound.

Not to change the subject of this thread but that is the SAME criticism of SYW. Stevie and Mick protested the album was too long. Stick with the most commercial 10 songs. The entire reason for Tusk was the artist/s to challenge the listeners and expose them to something new. SYW has the exact same criticism. Stripping Tusk of Lindsey songs because he's a solo artist on many of them removes the intent of the album. Tusk gave us baby sweet Stevie ballads like Storms and Beautiful Child. SYW gave us angry unpredictable Illume and Everybody Finds Out. Come is unconventional Fleetwood Mac as The Ledge. You cant make someone else like music but the people that flame SYW and praise Tusk confuse me because the same invention was used. We all wanted Chris on that album but it did not happen. Going in a different direction and daring the listener is something I appreciate on both albums and I am preaching to Lindsey's choir. People say SYW is cold and the same criticism was used on Tusk especially when Lindsey was telling producers to turn the dials in the opposite direction. You can hate the music on both albums or just one of the albums. But the albums are very similar in the approach and sound. Chris was missing from SYW but she's also missing for 7 songs in a row on Tusk.

[FuzzyPlum]

I mean Rumours 2….as in a similar album. Fans were expecting a certain product. It would have sold more than Tusk. Mirage was an over-reaction. Mirage went too safe and saccharine to compensate. Tusk didn’t get the success that was hoped for. Neither did mirage really. But a commercial and conventional follow-up to Rumours would have allowed them opportunity for solo work but retained a higher pull for a return to the full band.
The narrative is that Tusk allowed them to keep going for so many years afterwards…..I just think that’s a bit of a false premise.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by FuzzyPlum

I mean Rumours 2….as in a similar album. Fans were expecting a certain product. It would have sold more than Tusk. Mirage was an over-reaction. Mirage went too safe and saccharine to compensate. Tusk didn’t get the success that was hoped for. Neither did mirage really. But a commercial and conventional follow-up to Rumours would have allowed them opportunity for solo work but retained a higher pull for a return to the full band.
The narrative is that Tusk allowed them to keep going for so many years afterwards…..I just think that’s a bit of a false premise.

I couldn't agree more.

[Macfan4life]

Originally Posted by FuzzyPlum

I mean Rumours 2….as in a similar album. Fans were expecting a certain product. It would have sold more than Tusk. Mirage was an over-reaction. Mirage went too safe and saccharine to compensate. Tusk didn’t get the success that was hoped for. Neither did mirage really. But a commercial and conventional follow-up to Rumours would have allowed them opportunity for solo work but retained a higher pull for a return to the full band.
The narrative is that Tusk allowed them to keep going for so many years afterwards…..I just think that’s a bit of a false premise.

Bravo!
That is an excellent point. I think the reason for the false narrative is that during the making and touring of Tusk the band hit a wall. I remember the interviews with Stevie how she was burned out and "Rhiannoned and Landslided" to death. They were working non stop and burning the candle at both ends. By the time the Tusk tour ended they needed a break. I think even if there was a "Rumours 2" album instead of Tusk the same thing would have happened. The narrative has been that Tusk being not so well received allowed them to break off steam and live on for many years.
The 1970s were over
The limelight of Rumours ended
Tusk was not well received
The band was burnt out on recording and touring
Management changed
Solo careers sprouted up
Drug addiction was in full swing for many

Had there not been a requirement for another Mac album with the Warner contract we may not have gotten Mirage. It sort of forced them together one more time.

[aleuzzi]

I’m glad TUSK was what we got. I wasn’t glad then but as an adult, and with the distance of years, I find myself returning again and again to many of its songs. Its stubborn fragmentations are fascinating and the perfect antidote to yacht rock. History is on Buckingham’s side.

When The Eagles finally released THE LONG RUN as a follow up to HOTEL CALIFORNIA, it revealed an anxious commitment to staying commercial and hopefully repeating the formula. As a record, it’s pretty spotty and often bland. No one can say TUSK is bland.

What I have never bought, however, is that it was necessary, or even acceptable, for Lindsey to play other instruments without his peers. He’s a lousy drummer, and a competent pianist and bassist. Why settle for second-tier musicianship when you are working alongside some of the best players in rock?

Another argument I have not bought is MIRAGE is a safe follow-up to RUMOURS. It simply isn’t. It might be softer and more tuneful, but it is filled with weird arrangements. “Gypsy” is a notable exception.” Even “Hold Me” features all kinds of oddball touches. Quirky: that’s the word I’d use for MIRAGE. It’s charming but decidedly quirky. It’s less a follow-up of RUMOURS than a part 2 of LAW AND ORDER…

[Macfan4life]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

I’m glad TUSK was what we got. I wasn’t glad then but as an adult, and with the distance of years, I find myself returning again and again to many of its songs. Its stubborn fragmentations are fascinating and the perfect antidote to yacht rock. History is on Buckingham’s side.

When The Eagles finally released THE LONG RUN as a follow up to HOTEL CALIFORNIA, it revealed an anxious commitment to staying commercial and hopefully repeating the formula. As a record, it’s pretty spotty and often bland. No one can say TUSK is bland.

What I have never bought, however, is that it was necessary, or even acceptable, for Lindsey to play other instruments without his peers. He’s a lousy drummer, and a competent pianist and bassist. Why settle for second-tier musicianship when you are working alongside some of the best players in rock?

Another argument I have bet bought is MIRAGE is a safe follow-up to RUMOURS. It simply isn’t. It might be softer and more tuneful, but it is filled with weird arrangements. “Gypsy” is a notable exception.” Even “Hold Me” features all kinds of oddball touches. Quirky: that’s the word I’d use for MIRAGE. It’s charming but decidedly quirky. It’s less a follow-up of RUMOURS than a part 2 of LAW AND ORDER…

I don't disagree with much of what you wrote except for the fact The Long Run was bland. Songs like The Disco Strangler, Those Shoes, and The Greeks Don't Want No Freaks were extremely unconventional for the Eagles. I do agree much of their traditional formula was at work though.
I remember an interview with Don Henley in Musician magazine in 1984 where he praised Lindsey for his Tusk ideas mentioning he was playing percussion on kleenex boxes. I think that was an urban legend but Henley mention that in his praise of Lindsey. This was the same interview where Henley talked about merging The Eagles with Fleetwood Mac for a new band called the "Fleagles" or some name. He also had Lindsey play guitar on his solo album in 1984.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by Macfan4life

The limelight of Rumours ended
Tusk was not well received
The band was burnt out on recording and touring
Management changed
Solo careers sprouted up
Drug addiction was in full swing for many

I couldn't agree more.

[WalkAThinLine.]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

.

What I have never bought, however, is that it was necessary, or even acceptable, for Lindsey to play other instruments without his peers. He’s a lousy drummer, and a competent pianist and bassist. Why settle for second-tier musicianship when you are working alongside some of the best players in rock?

Another argument I have not bought is MIRAGE is a safe follow-up to RUMOURS. It simply isn’t. It might be softer and more tuneful, but it is filled with weird arrangements. “Gypsy” is a notable exception.” Even “Hold Me” features all kinds of oddball touches. Quirky: that’s the word I’d use for MIRAGE. It’s charming but decidedly quirky. It’s less a follow-up of RUMOURS than a part 2 of LAW AND ORDER…

Some songs on Tusk were attempted with the rest of the band, including "The Ledge" and "That's Enough For Me", but their additions were removed entirely. Based on Caillat's Get Tusked book, this seemed to stem from Buckingham's dissatisfaction with the contributions of certain members. Based on footage from the Tusk documentary, John did run-through "Save Me a Place" on bass guitar, where he created a far more melodic bassline than what appeared on the final recording. For these aforementioned songs, Lindsey had a preconceived idea of what they should sound like, which meant that he was willing to play the instruments himself. "That's All For Everyone" on the other hand required more time to develop and required the help from the other instrumentalists to push it past the finish line. The one-man-band mindset was applied on a song-by-song basis.

I also heavily agree with your statement on Mirage being more experimental than its given credit for. "Empire State" and "Eyes of the World" would have fit in very well on Law and Order (the latter song may have even been considered for that album based on an interview from Lindsey around 1981.) Even songs like "That's Alright" and "Only Over You" have some unconventional production choices. That album was a graceful transition into the 1980s that did not succumb to the cliches of the decade.

[Villavic]

I do think Mirage was more aligned to Rumours, not in a strictly musical, technical etc. way. But many songs were simply more radio friendly and attractive to people and common fans.

[WalkAThinLine.]

Originally Posted by Villavic

I do think Mirage was more aligned to Rumours, not in a strictly musical, technical etc. way. But many songs were simply more radio friendly and attractive to people and common fans.

I largely agree with this assessment. Outside of "Oh Diane" and "Book of Love", Lindsey's songs were still rather left of center and experimental. His songs were almost entirely overlooked in the US on radio with the exception of "Oh Diane", which barely hit the top 40 on the Adult Contemporary Chart. Meanwhile, Tusk didn't really have an obvious single perhaps outside of "Think About Me".

[Tusky]

Such an interesting discussion.
Yes it's a Lindsey term and as others have said, the industry had changed so much between 77 and 79-80. But as a fan from later, Tusk never seemed as wild as it did at the time, it felt like an organic step on. What it did for fans like us, was give the band gravitas beyond Rumours. I love the avant garde aspirations of Tusk.