Destiny Rules documentary

[bwboy]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I blame them because none of them needed the money, except for Mick and because at least 2 out of the 3 of them (Mick, John and Christine) had to have the sense to know that Stevie's ultimatum wouldn't last if they refused to back down. Not only does Stevie want tour money. She wants the attention that Fleetwood Mac brings. She wants to play stadiums. She wants the press. She wants the legacy.

How long did any of them really think she'd refuse to tour, if Lindsey was part of it?

That tour probably cost both John and Christine time off of their lives. I could never have guessed that Christine was in danger, but John looked taxed. It took a physical toll on him. If Lindsey had been wth them, I don't really say the same thing about him, because he is a ham. He is stimulated on stage. He might die there, during his ISA theatrics, but I don't think he'd care. If he'd toured, I don't think he'd have had the heart attack, but if he had, it would have been a lot less tragic turn of events. I can't get over the betrayal.

I agree with you in thinking that if Christine, Mick, and John had held out, then Stevie would have given in and done the tour with Lindsey. No way to know for sure, of course.

I differ with you about the whole health thing of the band members, though. It’s a tricky issue because we don’t know all the facts and there’s a ton of speculation, but it seems almost a contradiction to say that the tour could have cost both John and Christine time off their lives, but then say if Lindsey had toured, you don’t think he would have had the heart attack. Stress is stress to the human body. That’s why people can have a heart attack riding a roller coaster- the body can’t classify ‘good or fun’ stress from ‘bad stress.’ Or why big football players with a lot of muscle mass have heart attacks.

[cbBen]

As I say above or elsewhere, before a big tour such as FM insurance requires that every band member go through an extensive medical checkup. With the Rolling Stones, this mandated checkup found Mick Jagger's heart issue and he was able to address it with a valve replacement rather than a more invasive surgery such as a bypass.

Accordingly, had Lindsey been in the band the checkup he would have had to undergo may well have turned up his heart issue and he would have been able to address it – though he would not have been able to tour, and perhaps the band would have then said, "Tour is booked, can't cancel, Neil and Mike will fill in, but Lindsey is still a band member; he's just on bed rest" and Stevie would have gotten her wish without having to have Lindsey fired as such.

[bwboy]

Originally Posted by Wdm6789

I can respect and empathize with Stevie for not wanting a toxic work environment and not being able to put up with Lindsey anymore, but at that point, she had done it for so many years, she could have stuck it out for one more tour with him.

A couple of other folks have said the same thing, questioning why Stevie couldn’t have put up with a few more years with Lindsey. And it would have been years, because of the time it takes them to record an album, plus the tour.

At my job, if I was completely done with working with someone, I don’t think I would stick it out 2-3 more years. As fans, we want FM to make new music, but as an objective guy, I get why she didn’t want to stick it out anymore. I’m not saying she’s right or wrong, I’m just saying she clearly reached her threshold for whatever reason when it came to Lindsey and she was done. And she has the right to say she’s done. Just like he did in 1987.

[bwboy]

Originally Posted by cbBen

As I say above or elsewhere, before a big tour such as FM insurance requires that every band member go through an extensive medical checkup. With the Rolling Stones, this mandated checkup found Mick Jagger's heart issue and he was able to address it with a valve replacement rather than a much more invasive surgery such as a bypass.

Accordingly, had Lindsey been in the band the checkup he would have had to undergo would have likely turned up his heart issue and he would have been able to address it – though he would not have been able to tour, and perhaps the band would have then said, "Tour is booked, can't cancel, we'll have Neil and Mike to fill in, but Lindsey is still a band member; he's just on bed rest" and Stevie would have gotten her wish without having to have Lindsey fired as such.

That’s entirely possible, but it’s not 100% certain. I’m not a doctor and I don’t know how similar Mick Jagger’s situation was to Lindsey’s. Plus all the other factors, such as age. And if I can be snarky for a minute, a physical wouldn’t have helped anyway because some folks feel that Lindsey only had the heart attack because he was fired from FM- if a broken heart led to his heart attack, then a physical wouldn’t have helped or so they say.

[SteveMacD]

LOL, look at all of Lindsey’s personal physicians on here.

All of whom seem to forget the biggest predictor of heart disease: Family history.

I mean, it’s not like Morris or Greg Buckingham didn’t die young suddenly because of heart attacks. I guess Stevie invented a super secret time machine to take them out, too.

[David]

Originally Posted by michelej1

And why would they leave Stevie for Lindsey?

All I can think of is that, if you're a musician, it's a lot more fun to play LOVE RUNS DEEPER than DREAMS week after week.

[UnwindedDreams]

Originally Posted by bwboy

At my job, if I was completely done with working with someone, I don’t think I would stick it out 2-3 more years. As fans, we want FM to make new music, but as an objective guy, I get why she didn’t want to stick it out anymore. I’m not saying she’s right or wrong, I’m just saying she clearly reached her threshold for whatever reason when it came to Lindsey and she was done. And she has the right to say she’s done. Just like he did in 1987.

Well you don't want FM to make music, you want to hear album tracks live

I wonder if Mick or John ever said to Lindsey "If you keep this(whatever this is) up, you're out of here"

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by bwboy

I agree with you in thinking that if Christine, Mick, and John had held out, then Stevie would have given in and done the tour with Lindsey. No way to know for sure, of course.

I differ with you about the whole health thing of the band members, though. It’s a tricky issue because we don’t know all the facts and there’s a ton of speculation, but it seems almost a contradiction to say that the tour could have cost both John and Christine time off their lives, but then say if Lindsey had toured, you don’t think he would have had the heart attack. Stress is stress to the human body. That’s why people can have a heart attack riding a roller coaster- the body can’t classify ‘good or fun’ stress from ‘bad stress.’ Or why big football players with a lot of muscle mass have heart attacks.

The body can certainly differentiate between grief and exhilaration, between bad news and good. There’s a different kind of stress (joy excitement v. Worry and anxiety and depression) associated with giving birth and losing a child. The body does not react the same way to each situation.

And yes the comment about insurance is accurate. The insurance check for NBA play is how Magic Johnson discovered he was HIV positive all those years ago, for example.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

Well you don't want FM to make music, you want to hear album tracks live

I wonder if Mick or John ever said to Lindsey "If you keep this(whatever this is) up, you're out of here"

Maybe they said if you don’t play with a pic, you are out of here. That traumatized him to the point he was still talking about it 30 years later, when he obviously ended up doing what he wanted.

[bwboy]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

Well you don't want FM to make music, you want to hear album tracks live

I wonder if Mick or John ever said to Lindsey "If you keep this(whatever this is) up, you're out of here"

It’s true, I would rather hear deep tracks live than new music! I just haven’t cared for anything new they’ve done for a long, long time now, solo or together. On the Dance, I loved Silver Springs, the Farmer’s Daughter, and even Oh Daddy, a song I usually don’t care for, and hated Sweet Girl and Temporary One. I only like 6 songs on Say You Will and 2 songs on the EP.

I’m in the minority about preferring deep tracks to new songs, though. I can see why other people would prefer new music, too.

[cbBen]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Maybe they said if you don’t play with a pic, you are out of here. That traumatized him to the point he was still talking about it 30 years later, when he obviously ended up doing what he wanted.

It didn't traumatize him. A now-deceased friend of mine was a record producer. He told me one terrible change in the music industry is that at a certain point everything had to have a story. You couldn't just release an album and have the pitch be "This is great music."

These musicians do interviews and are more or less required to have stories to tell. It's a downside of the biz. Frankly, Lindsey isn't particularly good at this part of the job. He prefers making music.

But as stories go, I'd say it is interesting that Mick hired–as Waddy Wachtel put it–the greatest fingerstyle guitarist in the history of rock, and asked him to play with a pick. It's at least ironic.

Problem is, while a third party like Waddy can say why asking him to play with a pick was ironic (because Lindsey is a singularly good fingerstyle guitarist), Lindsey can't really explain that part himself because it would sound too self-aggrandizing. So when Lindsey talks about it he really tells only half the story and the irony and interest value isn't made clear.

It would be better if they didn't have to come up with any stories and could just say "We make great music." But unfortunately that's just not how it works.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by cbBen

But as stories go, I'd say it is interesting that Mick hired–as Waddy Wachtel put it–the greatest fingerstyle guitarist in the history of rock, and asked him to play with a pick. It's at least ironic.

Given Fleetwood Mac's body of work up until the end of 1974, Waddy would have been the more obvious choice for Fleetwood Mac. He played Les Pauls, he used a pick, and he was a more traditional lead guitarist. I think he would have gotten the equation that he was joining an established band a little more than Lindsey did.

Not that it would have been better.

[Karlie]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Given Fleetwood Mac's body of work up until the end of 1974, Waddy would have been the more obvious choice for Fleetwood Mac. He played Les Pauls, he used a pick, and he was a more traditional lead guitarist. I think he would have gotten the equation that he was joining an established band a little more than Lindsey did.

Not that it would have been better.

They would have also had to look for another singer/songwriter, though. Waddy’s not exactly lead vocalist material...

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Karlie

They would have also had to look for another singer/songwriter, though. Waddy’s not exactly lead vocalist material...

He would have been replacing Bob Welch, though.

Here’s his 45 he recorded at Sound City around the time Buckingham Nicks were recording. They supposedly sing on “You’re the One” and Jim Keltner was on drums (the mix is similar to “Don’t Let Me Down Again”). It was even on Anthem.

You’re The One
https://youtu.be/fjxpn7gWAek

Love You Should Save
https://youtu.be/FryhDDB832c

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by cbBen

It didn't traumatize him. A now-deceased friend of mine was a record producer. He told me one terrible change in the music industry is that at a certain point everything had to have a story. You couldn't just release an album and have the pitch be "This is great music."

Yes, I am quite aware that it did not traumatize Lindsey. I also don’t think he said it because he needed a story to tell. He said it long after it happened. It’s not some thing he was saying in interviews in the 70s. He said that after 2000. He didn’t say it to have a story to tell. The media never gets tired of their interpersonal relationships and that story is always available to them if he wanted to just blab for the sake of publicity. The pick is a different matter. He said it because it was a memory that he wanted to tell.