Lindsey Buckingham is so rude!!!!!!

[macfan 57]

Yes it did. Unfortunately, most American fans seem to just acknowledge US sales etc. so things like this do generally get overlooked by US fans, so I'm glad you mention that. Last I heard, BTM sold 80,000 in the US and 1,200,000 outside of the US.

John [/B][/QUOTE]

John, I agree with much of what you've been saying and I always enjoy reading your posts. But, BTM has sold 800,000 albums in the U.S. not 80,000, close to what SYW will end up selling. I'm sure you didn't mean to shortchange BTM sales.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Why does everyone thinks that TOSOTM is not deserving of praise? I think it is Stevie's best. There is so much pain and magic in that record. I love it!

I think people think TOTOTM is bad for a mnyriad of reasons. First, Stevie disappointed many longtime fans with her stuff on TITN. These same long time fans perhaps were still a little disappointed with her performaces on the RAL tour, where she gave what could best be described, and even she has alluded to this, as energetic but drugged out performances wherein she was coked up out of her mind and often would just sort of bark out the words instead of singing them with the backup singers. Then, the heavy synth sound of TOSOTM was so different than anything she had ever done as was the writing - there were no three part harmonies so apparent in Bella Donna, Wild Heart, and to a lesser extent RAL. It was a gamble for her to do this and it failed in many peoples' eyes, which again, was her third such failure in many peoples' eyes. Morevoer, please do not flame me for this, but she was beginning to gain weight and people did not react favorably to that as she had by her own admission put herself out there for years as the image of a sexy waif/street urchin, which she clearly no longer was on the surface. Finally, she was out of her mind on drugs (Klonopin/Valium/whatever) at the TOSOTM shows I saw and did not dance or move. In fact, at one of the shows, people around me commented on how they thought she had fallen asleep. This is why I think so many people, esp. long time fans, understandably do not look favorably at the period.

Personally, while it is not my favorite record of hers, I really like TOSTOM. I think it has some good stuff.

My $0.02

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
By the way, I believe there was a lot of promotion for this album: three tracks played on TV in advance of the release, all the Internet hoopla, a handful of TV appearances, countless radio stops and more print stories than you could shake a stick at. To say this album wasn't promoted is to ignore reality.

Carne, just for clarity, you ARE referring to SYW (and NOT BTM) right?

UPDATE: Just saw those above posts and they took you to mean SYW as well so I guess it was a safe enough assumption on my part then so nevermind.

John

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by macfan 57
John, I agree with much of what you've been saying and I always enjoy reading your posts. But, BTM has sold 800,000 albums in the U.S. not 80,000, close to what SYW will end up selling. I'm sure you didn't mean to shortchange BTM sales.

Oops, typo, sorry about that, yeah, I meant 800,000 US sales, and thanks macfan57.

John

[dissention]

Originally posted by diamondsnake
Why does everyone thinks that TOSOTM is not deserving of praise? I think it is Stevie's best. There is so much pain and magic in that record. I love it!

And Dissention, I understand that you are a big fan and all, I didn't really mean that you weren't a fan... I've just never heard you be positive about Stevie on this board. But then again I am never positive about Lindsey and I still respect him as an artist, even though I don't really respect him as a person...

Then you haven't read a lot of my posts. Like I said, by no means does my commenting on any business aspect or the like mean that I am speaking about her music. Keep that in mind before stating I'm not complimentary towards her.

But now, I will talk about the music...OSOTM to be exact.

The whole album is a mess. Not a mess on the scale of Street Angel (which is absolutely horrid to these ears...and Carne's!), but it was a mess. It gets off to a great start with Rooms On Fire and Long Way To Go (one of her most insipid but sooooooo addictive), but then Two Kinds of Love rolls around and spoils everything. Everything about that song is awful: vocals from both leads, asinine lyrics, and stock music. It's just bland as hell. Ooh My Love is alright, not a favorite, but I love it when it reaches the two minute mark; the last two minutes are fab-o for some reason. I can't bear to listen to Ghosts, it's painful. Whole Lotta Trouble is just as awful. What the hell was she thinking with that song??? Fire Burning is mediocre at best. I hate the music and the lyrics are just *stupid.* Cry Wolf has a good vocal in the chorus, but it just isn't a strong song. Alice is good because it has all the elements of Stevie and I'm a HUGE Alice In Wonderland fanatic. Juliet is one of my favorites. Doing the Best That I Can has awful production, but I love the intenseness of it. Blue Eyes sounds like carnie music, darlin'.

She chose Rupert Hine just because he said he'd do a bang-up job on Doing the Best That I Can and he ended up ruining the whole album. There is only one rocker to speak of, the rest are mid-temp adult contemp garbage and cheesy ballads. I mean, even Stevie's dad thinks it's awful.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
But now, I will talk about the music...OSOTM to be exact....
There is only one rocker to speak of, the rest are mid-temp adult contemp garbage and cheesy ballads. I mean, even Stevie's dad thinks it's awful.

I don't remember ever reading that Stevie's dad thought it was awful... but if he did, Mr. Nicks is entitled to his opinion (even when he's wrong ).

I actually pulled 'OSotM' out last night, as I haven't listened to it in its entirety in a long time.
So I put the headphones on, sat back, and listened.

I pretty much have the same opinion of it that I always did... love Stevie's voice (while missing the raspiness that she had on 'RAL' and 'Tango'), love the lyrics... less than thrilled with the production.
I always think of the Rolling Stone review that stated, "For every effective force like (Mike) Campbell, there's someone like producer-keyboardist Rupert Hine, whose trademark is lazy synth pop, and Kenny G, that purveyor of saxophone-Muzak sleeping pills."

Hine's production worked on some tracks... "Alice," "Rooms On Fire," "Ooh My Love," and "Doing The Best That I Can" in particular. But others never quite gel.
The album version of "Whole Lotta Trouble" isn't the greatest, but Tom Lord-Alge's remix (found on 'Timespace' and 'Enchanted') definitely improves the song by leaps and bounds.

I've always felt that a mix of too many keyboards, synths and programmed drums, makes for a "cold" atmosphere in a song, and that's really my biggest complaint about 'Mirror,' is that many of the songs don't have a warmth to them.
But lyrically and vocally, it's great... in my opinion.

And hey, at least Stevie tried something a little different for the sound and feel of the album, and while they didn't succeed 100% of the time, it's still highly enjoyable.

[Johnny Stew]

Oh, and Christopher (diamondsnake), just go right on loving 'OSotM' as much as you do.

If we all held the same opinion about things, this world would be a very boring place indeed.
And like I said, "great music" is defined by the individual.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I don't remember ever reading that Stevie's dad thought it was awful... but if he did, Mr. Nicks is entitled to his opinion (even when he's wrong ).

I've always felt that a mix of too many keyboards, synths and programmed drums, makes for a "cold" atmosphere in a song, and that's really my biggest complaint about 'Mirror,' is that many of the songs don't have a warmth to them.
But lyrically and vocally, it's great... in my opinion.

At the AHI '96 private concert, Stevie introduced Rooms On Fire by saying that it was off of the album that her father told her was her worst.

I've always believed that the reason for the mix of OSOTM was to make Stevie's voice sound much fuller because in general, it is *very* thin on the album. When I bought my first DVD player, I had hooked it up to my stereo instead of using TV speakers. The player had all kinds of effects that you could do to the audio tracks and I isolated it so that you could only hear vocals, bass, and some guitar; nothing else. It was strong on a few songs, but I thought it was very thin personally. I wish I knew how to record it onto CD, I'd love to have the stripped down version of the album.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
At the AHI '96 private concert, Stevie introduced Rooms On Fire by saying that it was off of the album that her father told her was her worst.

Ouch! Wonder what Stevie thought of that!
Apparently she had a sense of humour about it though, if she was willing to comment about it in front of an audience.

Originally posted by dissention
When I bought my first DVD player, I had hooked it up to my stereo instead of using TV speakers. The player had all kinds of effects that you could do to the audio tracks and I isolated it so that you could only hear vocals, bass, and some guitar; nothing else. I wish I knew how to record it onto CD, I'd love to have the stripped down version of the album.

Wow, I'd love to hear that!

I've often though some enterprising fan could probably do a good job mixing both 'Mirror' and 'Street Angel' in more agreeable ways.
The former is too airy overall, and the latter is too muddy.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I've often though some enterprising fan could probably do a good job mixing both 'Mirror' and 'Street Angel' in more agreeable ways.
The former is too airy overall, and the latter is too muddy.

Johnny--

Sound the alarms!!! We agree on something!!!

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Wow, I'd love to hear that!

If anyone can tell me to record it onto my computer or something from my DVD player, I'd be happy to give it a shot because I've always wanted it on a seperate CD.

Then maybe I'd mount my attack on Street Angel...

[face of glass]

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
Actually, this is something Bob Welch said at his last Penguin Q & A and I don't know if I buy that really as there's no way Mick could've known they would come back at that time (if he had done that)…

I don’t believe in such ”conspiracy theories”; it was just something I thought ChiliD hinted at in another thread. I don’t know if he believes in it either.

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
Um, I don't ever really recall Mick and John "sharing the spotlight" in the "days or yore". They have always been in the shadows (aside from Mick's hammy drum solo bits) and then the others were the front line.

Well, I didn’t really mean that. Yes, there was more jamming in the past, even if it was just limited to “I’m So Afraid”/”World Turning”/”Not That Funny”. Of course, it wasn’t as much as in the past, but it still was there.
But what I really meant was that the band seemed to be a democracy before. In the studio Mick’s and John’s contributions were integral to the way the songs were shaped: “The Chain” wouldn’t be what it is without the crucial bass drum kicks in the beginning, or the bass riff that leads to the outro. Even still on the Mirage tour I can feel the musicians feeding off on each other, willing to see what happens next, even though there’s a certain framework they’re operating in. And it should be noted that it was Lindsey’s songs they were using for launchpads, Stevie only had “Rhiannon” in that area, Chris had “Don’t Stop” (although I don’t know if you’ve heard a version of it with blues jamming, I’m aware that you’re not into bootlegs).
However, after the Mirage tour Lindsey probably lost interest in jamming. He decided to get rid of the spontaneous feeling that his studio work at the time had and became “the studio nerd” we all know. Fifteen years later he steps on the stage with FM again, but this time there are lots of guest musicians.
I don’t think we can solely blame Lindsey on this. Mick has lots of percussion help on stage these days and John just follows Mick wherever he goes, like you speculated in another thread. Stevie added the backing vocalists for the “Shaking The Cage” tour. Lindsey brought a part of his guitar army on stage with FM. So it’s obvious they’re not trying to be like in the old days anymore. But it’s not a real band for me then.

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
Lindsey (as the "leader" if you wish) shook it up with "Tusk" but that was more because HE wanted to shake it up. I wonder how he would've felt if SN or CM (or heck even MF & JM) wanted to do something different with their material (in regards to SN & CM)?

I guess they’ve all recognized the value of his work retroactively. At the time of the recording it might have been different though. Tusk, no matter how anti-democratic it may seem, still proved the world that the Rumours line-up couldn’t be easily pinpointed down. If there had been a Rumours II, or a White Album III, ad infinitum, then I believe the band would have become a nostalgia act studiowise. It is one now, as live performers, but not as a studio act and I will insist on that. I guess it’s mainly because Lindsey’s personality speaks to me more than that of any other member. I realize that a recording by a democratic band is probably of more value to you. I can’t feel that Mick and John were adding anything really significant to SYW; their playing is still valuable and recognizable but it seems like the tracks have the drums and the bass only because a rock and roll song has to have a rhythm section.

It has been stated by some reviewers that SYW sounds like two solo albums rolled into one, that it doesn’t sound like a band work. Some have speculated that it was because of Christine’s absence. But I guess I’m reaching the same point in cynicism that you are, John; I believe that at this point there’s no going back into the democracy and the (dis)harmony of the past. As of now, I’m still pleased with the situation in every area except the live performances. That’s where I’d still love to see Green/Kirwan/Welch/Buckingham/Vito jamming with Mick and John.

Overall, I guess I'm repeating myself a lot here. I should be toning down on the subject, especially since there's not that much we're disagreeing on, if at all.

[dissention]

Off topic, but does anyone know how someone made the center channel mixes for SYW? It's the same thing I did with my DVD player for OSOTM and I'd love to try it. Is there a software I could download? Thanks!

[dissention]

Okay, I'm downloading a program that claims to be able to isolate vocals and add effects and stuff. If this works, I'll be happier than a pig in ****. I've always wanted to do something funky with the Space Needle demo!

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
Okay, I'm downloading a program that claims to be able to isolate vocals and add effects and stuff. If this works, I'll be happier than a pig in ****. I've always wanted to do something funky with the Space Needle demo!

I love Space Needle! Does that mean we are agreeing on something?